Where is this?

Discussion in 'Ask The Experts' started by annabel, Dec 23, 2017.

  1. annabel

    annabel Puts the Heart into Hertfordshire

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    Can anyone help with the birth place of the first farm labourer, 3rd person down?
    This census was taken in Eltham, Kent Screen Shot 2017-12-23 at 13.21.57.png
     
  2. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    What is the census reference, please? :)

    It might be able to see clearer copies on different websites. ;)
     
  3. annabel

    annabel Puts the Heart into Hertfordshire

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    1871 census
    Class: RG10; Piece: 762; Folio: 92; Page: 43
    For James Mitchel
    Thanks
     
  4. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    Beddington???
     
  5. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    Yes, it certainly looks like it. :)
     
  6. annabel

    annabel Puts the Heart into Hertfordshire

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    Thank you, I'm now looking for his baptism there, but nothing doing at the moment. Born about 1811 to William and Elizabeth Mitchel(l)
     
  7. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    I had a feeling this might be interesting (because Beddington is close to where I was born)...but I discovered after digging around that it's actually Biddenden in Kent, between Tunbridge Wells and Ashford.

    The 1861 census ref is RG9 Piece 412 Fol. 34 Page 29 but the 1851 census gives it away.

    1851 census ref is HO107 Piece 1590 Fol. 432 Pages 2 & 3. This gives Biddenden as Jessey Brooks' place of birth and High Halden as John Mitchel's pob. High Halden is only about 4 miles from Biddenden.

    I haven't gone any further with this but I hope this helps:).
     
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  8. annabel

    annabel Puts the Heart into Hertfordshire

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    Thank you Flook. I already have those censuses. The 1861 is for the Brooks family that siblings James, Sarah and John Mitchell lived with at times.

    The thing is the Mitchells had an unmarried sister Caroline who was with her mother Elizabeth in 1861 and was born in 1809 Hellingly, Sussex. Through finding her baptism I found 5 more children baptised there to William and Elizabeth, filling in the 12 year gap between Sarah and James. These stop in 1811 in Hellingly with a Henry (all these children are refusing to be found after this).

    But James was born in 1811! Because they moved so far I'm not certain it was necessarily back to Biddenham straight away, the census in post 3 is the only place he has shown himself so far
     
  9. janetbooth

    janetbooth Top Dog Stalwart

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    He could be in the 1841 census of Eltham (HO107/482/10, folio 16, page 25) where he is described as a 25 year old Post Boy living at High Street, born in the county. Not that this gives you much more to go on as there are no obvious family members living with him.

    Janet
     
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  10. annabel

    annabel Puts the Heart into Hertfordshire

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    Help!
    One of the Hellingly lot was James bap sept 1805. I assumed he died because of this other James being born later, but trees have a James born 1806 from Hellingly with a wife Susan, and he was with her in 1871. There were no other James Mitchells born in Hellingly at that time
    James 1811 was a widower in 1871.
    Am I barking up the wrong tree?
     
  11. annabel

    annabel Puts the Heart into Hertfordshire

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    Thank you that looks promising
     
  12. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    I had that one in my sights and I think it looks a distinct possibility.

    I had a few random thoughts last night which I should really think through, but I'll post them now anyway.

    Is James's wife's maiden name THORNE? If so then Charles' age in the 1871 should be 21 or 22 as he was born in September Quarter 1849 according to the GRO historical index. If they got his age wrong, then that must cast a little doubt on the accuracy of the other ages in that census entry.

    In the 1871 census Eliza is down as a daughter age 14. I can trace an Eliza Mitchel born 1867 in Maidstone RD but there is also a record for Eliza Sarah Thorne born Greenwich Registration District, June Quarter 1856. That would point to a possible second marriage. This bit needs re-checking if anyone can help out.

    Where did his wife come from? Apart from the unlikely Sutton in Surrey there is a Sutton in Dover and there's always Sutton Valence (although that's unlikely as well). If it was Sutton in Dover that could be explained by James being a post boy who regularly visited Dover.

    Just thoughts in progress...
     
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  13. annabel

    annabel Puts the Heart into Hertfordshire

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    Just to say I have Eliza's baptism as Eliza Brook of Eltham, parents William and Sarah, at Woolwich July 1857. Not found on the GRO though
     
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  14. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    That fits nicely with the GRO entry for Eliza Brook (sic), birth registered in Lewisham Union June Quarter 1857. Eltham was in Lewisham RD.

    The mother's maiden name is Taylor.

    It's interesting that both entries spell the name Brook.
     
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  15. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    Just to say I did a bit of work on this last night and I've almost completely changed my mind. I'm out celebrating Christmas today and so I'll leave it for the time being, but I'll be back at some point. Merry Christmas to anyone who reads this :).
     
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  16. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    1861 Census: RG9 Piece 509 Fol. 35 Pages 1 & 2
    Brickwall House, Biddenden, Tenterden, Kent
    Elizabeth Mitchell, Head, Widow, 88, born Tenterden, Kent
    John Mitchell, Son, unmarried, 64, Tea Dealer, born Hulden, Kent [High Halden]
    Caroline Mitchell, Daughter, unmarried, 50. Milliner, born Hillingly, Sussex [Hellingly]

    1871 Census: RG10 Piece 762 Fol. 92 Pages 42 & 43
    Pope Street, 1, Theobalds Buildings, Eltham, Lewisham, Kent.
    William Brooks, Head, age 52, Dust Contractor, born Biddington [Biddenden]
    Sarah Brooks, wife, 54, born Biddington
    Charles Brooks, son, single, 20, Dust Contractor, born Eltham, Pope Street.
    Eliza Brooks, daughter, 14, born Eltham, Kent
    Emily Gregory, granddaughter, 6, born Tunbridge Wells, Kent
    James Mitchel, uncle, widower, 60, Farm Labourer, born Biddington



    Well this is rather confusing. I promised to get back to you and I've a lot more than what I'm posting here but all I'd like to know at the moment is if I'm on the right lines so far. I'm presuming that you have everything below (or maybe a more accurate version than mine!). In summary, I've not found your James but I'm a bit fidgety about Caroline and also about Hellingly.

    The 1861 Census (RG9/412/34/29). The GRO historical index gives some of the childrens' mother's name as Larkin which I took as being Sarah Larking (sic) baptised Sutton Valence 3rd October 1819 and marrying William Brook in Lewisham on 7th August 1842 [The marriage is on Ancestry]. The only problem is that his father's name is given as William.

    Leaving that to one side I tracked down a baptism of William Brook to Biddenden, Kent, on 25th May 1823 - parents Richard and Mary Brook [Family Search] (there is another son Richard, baptised 9 September 1821). I've assumed this was Richard baptised in Biddenden 14th June 1794 and that his wife was Mary Mitchel, baptised 27 December 1794 in High Halden, Kent [FS].

    So in the 1861 Census above, Elisabeth Milton (bap Tenterden 12 March 1775 [FS]) married William Mitchell in High Halden on 4th April 1793 [FS] and their children were:

    Mary baptised 27 December 1794 - High Halden [FS]
    John baptised 13 August 1796 - High Halden [FS]
    Sarah baptised 13 May 1799 - High Halden [FS]

    It's now a leap of faith that William and Elizabeth upped sticks from High Halden and travelled 35 miles to live in Hellingly in Sussex....and this is where I'll stop for the moment as I have a couple of questions.

    I haven't been able to find a baptism for Caroline - do you have a reference? I've found the following children of William and Elizabeth in Hellingly on Family Search:

    George - baptised 18 September 1803
    Thomas baptised 1 February 1807
    Henry baptised 21 June 1811
    Edwin baptised 25 November 1813

    Are these the ones you have and have you found another one as well?

    Ignore the attachment below - I haven't been able to delete it!
     

    Attached Files:

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  17. annabel

    annabel Puts the Heart into Hertfordshire

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    Well I those 2 censuses you quoted at the beginning are the ones I have been looking at. And I agree about Sarah Larkin, his 2nd wife was also called Sarah which confused me for a bit.

    I have a baptism for William in 1818 in Biddenham to William and Mary A which I thought might be him. But I like that Richard and Mary Mitchel connection, that could very well be significant, I'll look into that some more tomorrow

    Yes I think Elizabeth Milton was married to William Mitchel. I have found Caroline, on the Sussex OPC for Hellingly:
    I haven't found Mary 1794, but I had John and Sarah bap High Halden
    Then in Hellingly Elizabeth 1802, George 1803, James 1805, Thomas 1807, Alfred 1808, Caroline 1809, Henry 1811
    Then 1811 James from post 1 ?Beddenden?

    Of course they didn't have to be baptised straight after birth...
     
  18. annabel

    annabel Puts the Heart into Hertfordshire

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    PS How do you know Mary wife of Richard Brook was a Mitchel, have you found the marriage?
     
  19. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    Thank you for all that Annabel. It's very interesting. I think there is a further child - Edwin baptised Hellingly 25 November 1813.

    An Edwin appears in the 1851 census: HO107 Piece 1634 Fol. 238 Page 12. What's interesting about that is that his place of birth is given as Dicker and on Google maps Dicker, Lower Dicker and Upper Dicker are close by Hellingly. I've noticed that there are other Mitchells associated with one of the Dickers but I haven't looked into them yet. There must be a possibility that this is where the Mitchells actually lived.

    I didn't find a marriage but if Richard was William's father then he had to have married a Mitchell for James Mitchell to be an uncle in the 1871 census - that made Mary Mitchell a shoe-in as Richard's wife - it's an assumption but there seems to be a lot going for it.

    I'll carry on looking at all this and will get back to you with any thoughts I've had.
     
  20. janetbooth

    janetbooth Top Dog Stalwart

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    Just a few thoughts to add to those of Flook and others and I hope I am not repeating too much! Using the 1861 census of Eltham as a guidance it is interesting that the only GRO birth registration for Eliza the daughter of William & Sarah BROOK(S) at Lewisham in the June qtr 1857 shows the mother's maiden name as TAYLOR as does the birth registration at Lewisham in the September qtr 1849 for George BROOK whereas all the other children from Sarah in 1843 up to Emma in the December qtr 1860 (with the exception of Frederick whom I cannot find at the moment) shows the mother's maiden name as LARKIN - was William leading a double life or has the GRO just got it wrong in a couple of cases?? The parish register entry for George's baptism at Eltham on 16 September 1849 definitely shows him as the son of William & Sarah BROOK, Eltham, Labourer. I cannot find a baptism for Frederick at Eltham, but unfortunately Ancestry's parish register images have a whole load of gobbledegook between December 1853 and June 1854 which is just the time Frederick is likely to have been baptised and the same thing applies to the period when Eliza is likely to have been baptised.

    Both of William BROOK's marriage records show his father to be William BROOK, Labourer, so we are presumably looking for a marriage of a William BROOK to a female MITCHEL prior to 1818 which is the approximate birthdate for William according to his 2nd marriage record. FMP have the transcription of a marriage at Hellingly on 15 June 1817 of William BROOK of Biddendon to a Mary MITCHELL of the parish, so that presumably links the MITCHEL(L) relatives of James to Hellingly in some way.

    Janet
     

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