Which Branch?

Discussion in 'Durham' started by Maureen Butterley, Nov 19, 2013.

  1. Maureen Butterley

    Maureen Butterley New Member

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    Grateful for any help in establishing which of the two branch's of the attached Family Tree is the most likely to be ancestral.

    Thanks

    Mo
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    Hello Mo - welcome to Genealogy Specialists :)

    Rather than have an attachment that not everyone might be able to open (different operating systems etc), please would you copy/paste the information therein into a post. That way, we will all be able to see the information that you have and your conclusions from it.

    Oh! By the way - could you update your location box in your profile, please? That way, if we need to refer you somewhere, we will know how realistic - or not! - it would be. ;)

    Thanks,
     
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  3. gillyflower

    gillyflower Always caring about others

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    Hello and welcome. C|:-) It is sometimes difficult to know which is the right ancestry and sometimes short of guessing - and you do not want to end up researching the wrong family. I can only suggest parish records which may be very patchy and probably unreadable too Check out the sources of ancestotrs from other tree owners, try to find out what they know and is it reliable or guesswork.
     
  4. Maureen Butterley

    Maureen Butterley New Member

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  5. Maureen Butterley

    Maureen Butterley New Member

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    Hi, my location is in Shropshire. I've tried to paste my attachment but it appears not to have configured correctly on the forum post page. I guess I'm just going to have to hope that my word doc. attachment can be opened by anyone wishing to help.

    Thank you

    Mo
     
  6. Maureen Butterley

    Maureen Butterley New Member

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    Hi, I hope that you were able open the attachment showing my family tree's A and B. In any event thanks for the reply, I have looked at other family tree's which I have been able to cross check with the parish records of Burton Fleming compiled by an accredited source for the period 1538 to 1812. However, whilst that information is reliable it does not provide the link I need (in the case of Tree 'A') that Thomas Butterie Ch. 8 July 1565 at Burton Fleming is the same TB who married Magdalena Buck in Greatham, Nr. Hartlepool 30 May 1591. The distance from Burton Fleming in the E. Riding of Yorks. to Greatham is about 55 miles, so not too far if circumstances required he move. Also, I could not find a burial record for him in B. Fleming post 8 Jul 1565 which does support a move.

    Thanks

    Mo
     
  7. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    The forum post page can be quirky like that.

    Please check the information below that I have not messed it up ;) :

    (part one)


    TREE ‘A’

    Location: Burton Fleming, E.Yorks
    John Buttrie circa 1505
    I
    John Buttrie circa 1535
    I
    Thomas Buttrie 8 Jul 1565

    Location: Greatham, Durham
    Thomas Butterie of 1565 married
    Magdalena Buck on 30 May 1591
    I
    Thomas Butterie 14 Aug 1591
    I
    Location: Durham City, Durham
    Thomas Butterie of 1591 married
    Jane Hutcheson of 1608 on the
    1 Aug 1631 at Durham St Margaret
    I
    Thomas Buttryi 18 May 1632 who
    Married a Maria or Mary circa 1655/58
    I
    I
    I
    George Butterie of
    13 May 1659 at
    St Mary le Bow
    Durham City

    TREE ‘B’

    Location: Durham
    Robert Butterie cir.1520
    I
    Anthony Butterie 1550
    marriages:
    Thomezone Foster 1579
    St Mary le Bow Durham
    Margery Snawdon 1588
    St Margarets Durham
    Jenne Burfield 1598
    St Margarets Durham
    I
    Location: Whickham, Nr. Gateshead
    Thomas Buttery 1608
    and may POSSIBLY have been the Thomaswho married Jane on
    1 Aug 1631 and was the father of Thomas of 1632
    I
    I
    I
    George Butterie of
    13 May 1659 at
    St Mary le Bow
    Durham City
     
  8. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    (Part Two)


    Notes:

    1) Tree ‘A’ requires that Thomas Buttrie 1565 of Fleming Burton moved to the Greatham/Hartlepool area. I could find no burial record {which
    Included a search of local records post 1565) which may be taken to
    Support a his move to the Greatham area…….a distance of about 55M

    2) Tree ‘B’ indicates that Anthony of 1550 would have been 58yrs when
    He fathered Thomas of 1608……the above records do show three
    Marriages for an Anthony, they may be three marriages for the same Anthony, or three different Anthony’s. If the former were correct then
    Its likely he fathered children with each marriage, or if the latter is
    Correct then the Anthony who married Jenne Burfield may not be the
    Same Anthony born in 1550.

    One other important factor is that there was a Thomas Buttery born in
    1636 in Whickham, nr. Gateshead with father named as Mr. Thomas Buttery. However there is a burial record later that year for a Thomas Buttery with father named as Mr Thomas Buttery. This fact also appears to undermine Tree ‘B’ as Thomas Buttery of 1608 Whickham
    Is unlikely to have fathered Thomas Buttryi of 1632 Durham and four
    Years later in 1636 father another child in Whickham and also name
    Him Thomas.

    Conclusion:

    Whilst Tree ‘A’ provides for a believable ancestral line, that assumption is based upon my own limited knowledge in researching family history. I would therefore very much appreciate constructive comments from those in the forum who are better informed than I on whether Tree ‘A’ is realistic or not.

    (These are Mo's notes that have been copied over)
     
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  9. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    Hello Mo and welcome to the forum

    At this time many parish registers are incomplete, if they have survived at all, and it is dangerous to try to construct family trees without using other evidence.

    I would recommend exploring other sources, such as probate records, deeds, manorial records, and so on, to try to establish links between one generation and another. For more about researching in this period, see Paul Chambers' book, Early Modern Genealogy.
     
  10. Flook

    Flook A True Gentleman. Rest in Peace.

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    Thanks Huncamunca. On your recommendation I've just ordered a copy :)
     
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  11. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    There's a companion volume called Medieval Genealogy, for those who are lucky enough to be able to trace their ancestors back beyond parish registers.
     
  12. Maureen Butterley

    Maureen Butterley New Member

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    Hi Huncamunca

    Thank you for the welcome, I've researched probate/manorial records etc without success. At this stage of my research I think I may have to rely upon 'The Balance of Probability' as regards which tree to follow, my own feeling is that Tree A is the more likely of the two and concentrate on that and eliminate B from my research and perhaps access one or both of the books you mention to help me. If it's in order to ask for an opinion on which of the two tree's is the one worth pursueing then I'm asking.

    Many Thanks

    Mo
     
  13. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    I don't think it is possible to say without further evidence whether either of these trees might be connected to yours. It is possible that neither of them is the correct one. :(

    So many early parish registers have gaps, sometimes very long ones. If these gaps are badly timed it could mean that your ancestors were getting baptised, married or buried in the same parish but that they aren't mentioned in the parish register. For one family I've been looking at, the Box family of Witney, there are frustrating gaps in the 16th and 17th century parish registers at crucial times in the family history. I have been able to prove some connections through other sources, but some lines in the family tree remain dotted and may never be verifiable.

    Re. the wills, don't just check for Butterie (and variants): sometimes the vital evidence of a connection is in a will of a relative with a different surname (e.g. a maternal grandmother, or a married sister). There may be several ecclesiastical courts with jurisdiction over the relevant geographical area, so make sure you have located all the indexes.
     
  14. Maureen Butterley

    Maureen Butterley New Member

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    OK thanks for that

    Mo
     
  15. Maureen Butterley

    Maureen Butterley New Member

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    Hi Jan

    Thank you for going to the trouble of opening up the Family Tree attachment and posting to the forum. Notwithstanding the comments I've received from Huncamunca which I shall certainly follow up, I'd like to put a little more flesh on the bones of my Family Tree:

    I have traced the tree back to:

    George Butterie
    Ch. 13 May 1659
    at St Mary le Bow, Durham City.

    Having had my findings verfied by Durham Records Office and Durham University Special Collections I am as satsified as I can be that the Tree is correct up to above GB of 1659 whose father is named as Thomas Buttryi CH 18 May 1632 at Durham St Margarets. Both GB 1659 and TB 1632 were Drapers and were both members of the Durham Guild of Drapers/Tailors with TB being admitted at age 21yrs in 1653 which fits with the 1632 date of his birth and christening. The father of TB 1632 is Thomas Butterie CH 14 Aug 1591 at Greatham, Nr. Hartlepool who married Jane Hutcheson 1 Aug 1631 at Durham St Margaret. I have evidence that supports Thomas Butterie of 1591 Greatham moved with other members of his family to Durham, this is evidenced by marriage records of two of his brothers as well as himself, also burial records. The father of TB 1591 was Thomas Butterie who married Magdalena Buck on the 30th May 1591.

    At this point I estimated the birth of the father Thomas Butterie is likely to have been between 1560 and 1570ish. The only reference I could find for the birth of a Thomas Butterie which fits with this date was Thomas Buttrie CH 8 July 1565 at Burton Fleming, East Riding Yorks. a distance of approx. 55 miles from Greatham. I researched the records of a local Genealogical Society for Burton Fleming and found that the naming patterns were consistent with naming patterns in the family. I could find no burial record in Burton Fleming for TB 1565, I am therefore satisfied that he must have moved from the parish, and his move could well have been to the Teeside area (Greatham) where there would have been plenty of work judging by the industries of the period, salt, coal etc.

    I appreciate that I cannot with absolute certainty say that TB 1565 Burton Fleming is ancestral, the records of the time don't allow for that. However, on the balance of probabilities I am minded that it is not an unlikely scenario. I would welcome your opinion.
     
  16. Maureen Butterley

    Maureen Butterley New Member

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    Daft Bat

    Hi Jan

    Have you had the opportunity of reading the post I sent you on Thurs. 21st Nov putting some flesh on the bones of my Family Tree, and if so your opinion please as regards my hypothesis.

    Thanks
    Mo
     
  17. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    Hi Mo,

    Your hypothesis certainly looks promising, but don't just take my opinion on it. ;) Have you followed up the suggestions made by Huncamunca?
     
  18. Maureen Butterley

    Maureen Butterley New Member

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    Hi Jan

    Thank you for that, and yes I am following up on Huncamuna's suggestions.
     
  19. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    I can only reiterate the possibility that the baptism may have been closer to home but gone unrecorded because the relevant parish register just hadn't been started or has not survived. A list of the starting dates for parish registers in County Durham makes quite sobering reading: many of them start after the date when you are expecting your Thomas Butterie to have been born.

    Another approach might be to look at any records for Greatham, and neighbouring parishes, that go back earlier than the parish registers to see if there's any mention of people called Butterie in that area. Some may be published, but many will not have been. Your chances of finding someone mentioned do diminish greatly before the beginning of parish registers: it will depend on their status.

    I will add here, though it probably won't cheer you up, that I have been researching my family tree for around 30 years and haven't traced any lines back before the beginnings of parish registers. I have accepted that it will probably be impossible for my humble ancestors. That doesn't mean I have given up, though: there are always new things to be discovered about the people who are already in my tree, and about what their lives might have been like.
     
  20. Angela

    Angela Active Member

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    Hi Mo and welcome

    Another member from Shropshire with a Yorkshire connection, I see

    I have to say that you have managed to trace your Yorkshire family back to a much earlier time than I have managed to trace my own. Most impressed!
     

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