Hi, I have looked on the Draper Company site for my 3 x great grandad John knight born 1795-1800, died 1845. Nothing came up. John died in 1845 Hackney London/Middx. John wasn't born in the county possibly Devon ?. Now I've come to a standstill. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
From the 1841 census I see that neither John nor Ann (his wife?) was born in the county (Middlesex) but the three children with them (John, 8; Mary, 5; Fanny, 1) all were. From a query on another forum I see that Fanny's birth certificate gives her mother's maiden name as Long or Lang. There is a marriage on FamilySearch for a John Knight & Ann Lang in Stoke Damerel in 1831 which might fit. You can see an image of the register on Findmypast in their Devon Marriages data set. I cannot tell you what it says there, because of FMP's terms & conditions, but think it is OK to say that John's occupation is given, which will help you decide if he is your John or not. The marriage indicates which parish they were from at the time of the marriage, but of course that's not necessarily where they were born.
Hi Huncamunca, Many thanks for that. Occupation given as woollen draper on the marriage, which I didn't expect. The info you gave are the right family. Many thanks.
As you have already discovered, Jules, orphans Elizabeth Knight (15) [is she the same person as Mary from 1841?] and Fanny Knight (12) were with Joseph and Elizabeth Collins in Plymouth in 1851, and shown as Joseph's nieces. I'd hoped that Joseph's wife Elizabeth (born in Portsea in about 1820) might be John Knight's sister and so lead us to him. However, now that I've done some digging I think she might be Ann Lang's sister. A Joseph Francis Collins married in the East Stonehouse district in the June quarter of 1846. There is an Elizabeth Lang with matching references. I haven't found the marriage itself online anywhere to check that these two did marry one another. There is another Elizabeth among those with matching references (Elizabeth Dawe) and one tree on Ancestry does have her marrying Joseph Frances Collins, though it does not give any evidence to support that claim. From FamilySearch, there is an Elizabeth Lang baptism in Portsea at around the right time, with parents John & Grace. Are they the same John & Grace Lang who had a daughter Ann baptised in Maker, Cornwall, in 1810 according to FamilySearch, or is that wishful thinking? They were described as of Portsea in 1813 when a daughter Elizabeth was baptised at the Morice Street Wesleyan chapel in Devonport. (Since they had another Elizabeth later, this one may have died young.)
Hi, Elizabeth was the sister of Ann as per marriage certificate to Joseph Collins. Father John Lang late Sargaent R.M. Funny I've not long looked at the baptisms for Elizabeth parents John and Grace. Johns and Ann's son John married a Harriet Maria Knight from Devon parents William occ baker and mother Sarah. At the moment I can't find a family connection other than through marriage. I did come across another William Knight marrying in I think 1829 Stoke Damerel to a Sarah Frost his occupation is draper, though not found them on the censuses. I though being a draper he may be a brother to John?.
Certainly well worth investigating. By a very roundabout route I think I have found a bit more on this family. Robson's 1839 directory of Devon has a William Knight of 16 East Street, Plymouth, listed under the heading 'Linen & Woollen Drapers'. There is a Willm Knight in East Street, Plymouth St Andrew, on the 1841 census (HO 107/269, book 8, folio 18, page 32). His occupation isn't stated but there is an assistant draper in the household which is encouraging. He's shown as 45 years old and born in the county (which at least narrows it down a bit!). Also in the household are Lydia Knight (8), Eliza Knight (6), Saml Knight (5) and Eliz Godfrey (25, ass. draper), all born in the county. The births of three children of William Knight and his wife Sarah, of the parish of Charles, Plymouth, are noted near the back of a register of births from the How Street Baptist chapel, in the parish of Charles, in the Borough of Plymouth (RG 4/1215): Entered in the register on 20 June 1837: Lydia Frances Knight, born 20 September 1832 Eliza Knight, born 18 November 1834 Samuel Frost Knight, born 21 February 1836 (The register ends in 1837. There was evidently a rush for members of the congregation to get their children's births recorded before the register was handed in to the Registrar General when civil registration came in, as there are quite a lot of retrospective records of birth added at the end of the book.) I haven't done a thorough search of the register for other Knights. These non-conformist records ought to be indexed on Ancestry (Lydia's is, but they have her d.o.b. as 1882 not 1832!) and elsewhere so you may be able to pick up other pre-1837 birth and death/burial records. RG 4/1216 is a burial register for the same chapel. This has a record of the burial of 19 month old Sarah Ann Frost Knight, of the parish of Charles, Plymouth, buried in the Protestant Dissenters Burying Ground, George Street, Plymouth, 24 March 1833. (I haven't checked for others) With the name Frost featuring a couple of times, these have to be the William Knight and Sarah Frost whose marriage you found.
Sarah isn't with William on the 1841 census but must have still been around somewhere because there is a tree on Ancestry ('Cox Family Tree') with an image of the birth certificate for Elizabeth Kate, daughter of William Knight (draper) and Sarah Knight formerly Frost, born 28 February 1844 at East Street, Plymouth St Andrew. The child's mother Sarah, of East Street, registered the birth. There is also a birth registration in the Plymouth district in the last quarter of 1845 for a Robert Frost Knight (and a death registration in 1848 ) If Elizabeth Kate born 1844 was known as Kate then this could be the family in 1851: Sarah Knight (45, married - but her husband isn't there) with children 'Samull' (15, solicitor's clerk), Sarah 12, Thomas 10, Hannah 9 and Kate 7 at 11 Providence Street, Charles the Martyr, Plymouth. (HO 107/1878, f.375, p.27). Then in 1861, what looks like some of the same children from the 1841 and 1851 censuses (Eliza 26, Sarah 22, Hannah 19 and Kate 17) were with their widowed father 63 year old William Knight at 24 Prospect Street, Charles. He is not a draper any more but a commission agent. We get a birthplace at last: Devonport (RG 9/1436, f.65, p.15).
No wonder I couldn't find William Knight, was looking under Lang. Thanks again for your work in looking into this. I'll go back now and have another look. Couldn't find anything on the apprenticeship records, but the Devon records are being transcribed, so if I don't find anything conclusive hopefully these records will help.
Having had a look at the census records. It's looks like William Knight may have remarried to Mary? (Smith) 1867 Plymouth. His occupation as per probate is stationer. Son Thomas is a wholesale clothier. If this is the right marriage then should have fathers name on the marriage certificate. In the meantime will have another scout around.
