Did Harry Vincent Griffiths become Harry Vincent Cheeseman/Chessman??

Murfomurf

Murfomurf

Well-Known Member
There is a Harry Vincent Cheeseman on the 1939 Register for England and Wales with birth date 4 Jul 1898. He is living with:
Paulina Cheesman (nee Reynolds) b. 4 May 1878, a widow
Brian Walter Cheesman b. 30 Mar 1908 a Steelworker, single
Ellen Margaret Dorothy Cheesman b. 17 Apr 1903, single

I cannot find a Birth registration for Harry in the months around the stated date, although there is one for a person with the same name in 1904. I have no idea if its a late reg for my Harry:
GRO GRIFFITHS, HARRY VINCENT ADAMS GRO Reference: 1904 S Quarter in KING'S NORTON Volume 06C Page 405

The Griffiths surname comes from several family trees which claim Harry is the child of Frances Stanley (born Thringstone, Reg GRO STANLEY, FRANCES EDWARDS GRO Reference: 1878 S Quarter in ASHBY DE LA ZOUCH Volume 07A Page 115, mother Mary Ann Edwards).

Frances Stanley married as Frances Griffiths to Thomas Cheeseman/Chessman:

FreeBMD Marriages Mar 1915
Chessman Thomas Griffiths Ashby Z. 7a 163
Griffiths Frances Chessman Ashby Z. 7a 163

In my view she could have married a Mr Griffiths elsewhere, then divorced, or he died, and then returned to England and re-married to Thomas Chessman/Cheeseman. The couple had several children, two of whom Emily (1918) and James (1919) lived to adulthood and married. None of these Cheesemans were living with Harry Vincent in 1939.

Could you please apply your expert brains to the problem of Harry's biological identity and where he was born? Or tell me there are two separate people and that I'm barking up several wrong trees?
 
Harry Vincent Cheeseman Sep qtr Hull Yorkshire 1898
Harry Vincent Cheeseman 1911 census born Hull, in Crosby Lincolnshire with Harry Cheeseman, father and Pauline Cheeseman mother. Harry Snr was a hairdresser.
Harry Vincent Cheeseman death Lincolnshire 1983 birthdate 3/7/1898
Census of 1901 he is Harry T Cheeseman father is Harry a hairdresser living at Goulton Street, Myton, Leeds. Mother Paulina.
 
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To add to what Sue has found for you, a Harry Vincent GRIFFITHS born c 1905 is in the 1911 census of Balsall Heath together with parents John Boulter & Emma GRIFFITHS & siblings Lilian Maud, John Prosser, Gladys May & Ellen Hilda GRIFFITHS. He is living at Sparkhill in the 1921 census, his mother being shown as a widow. 1939 census shows him as being born 16 June 1904, married, living at 58 Compton Road, Wolverhampton, Staffordshire with a Hettie I GRIFFITHS who was born on 24 July 1902. Warwickshire Electoral Registers show Harry Vincent living at 17 Frederick Road, Sparkhill, together with mother Emma, Charles Edwin & Ellen Hilda GRIFFITHS up to 1931, so he presumably married between 1931-39. John Boulter GRIFFTHS his father married Emma ADAMS June qtr 1886 at Walsall reg district.

Janet
 
"Harry Vincent Cheeseman Sep qtr Hull Yorkshire 1898" plus on GRO his mother is revealed as Paulina Westoby.
Thanks for working out there were two different people, both with mother Paulina and (apparent) father Cheeseman/Chessman. I wasn't looking in Yorkshire for Harry so missed the one you found.
I still have the puzzle of Harry Vincent Griffiths whose apparent mother married Thomas Cheesman/Chessman.
 
OK @janetbooth so there IS a separate Harry Vincent Griffiths with mother nee Adams!
Now the only little brick wall remaining is why Frances Stanley married as Frances Griffiths. If there is a separate Frances Griffiths, a whole lot of family trees are totally wrong! Not my problem as I wasn't going ahead until I had sorted them all out.
 
1921 census of Belton shows Thomas CHESSMAN living at Market Place with wife Frances and amongst the family members is a stepson Harry GRIFFITHS, aged 10 (father dead) & stepdaughter May GRIFFITHS. Birth registration September qtr 1911 at Ashby de la Zouch for a Charles Henry GRIFFTHS, mother's maiden name STANLEY.

Janet
 
Thanks heaps @janetbooth! I can't access the 1921 Census so couldn't have found out about the other Griffiths children. Any chance you found the marriage of Frances Stanley and Mr Griffiths?
 
I hadn't when I looked previously, but May GRIFFITHS' birth registration was in the September qtr 1902 at West Derby reg district, mother's maiden name STANLEY so perhaps I wasn't looking in the correct area. Trying to follow Frances through the census records before her first marriage, she is in the 1891 census of Swannington, Leicestershire with her parents and siblings but is not with them in the 1901 census.

1911 census of Coalville, Leicestershire shows a May GRIFFITHS aged 8 born Garston, Liverpool, described as a niece living with a Richard GRIFFITHS, his wife Frances, aged 36 born Leicestershire, and servant Sarah E STANLEY, aged 14, born Thringstone. Richard & Frances have been married 4 years having had 1 child who is dead. However, Richard GRIFFITHS appears to have married a Frances BOWNES in the September qtr 1907 at Ashby de la Zouche. But it gets more tangled by the minute! Ancestry have the parish register baptismal record of a May GRIFFITHS (born 31 May) at Garston St Michael on 15 July 1902, daughter of Richard & Frances GRIFFITHS, 36 Vis...... Street, Garston, Labourer.

What a tangled web! Frances STANLEY married Charles William BOWN at St Andrew's church Whitwick on 5 March 1898, her father being shown as Edward STANLEY. Can't give you full details because the image is on FMP. Haven't found a death record for him yet, but you may have better luck!

Janet
 
I discovered that Mr Griffiths, father of Harry Vincent may be Richard Griffiths from a Griffiths family tree. Now I need to find him with Frances and the children as I can't locate the marriage, if they had one.
 
janetbooth said:
...May GRIFFITHS' birth registration was in the September qtr 1902 at West Derby reg district, mother's maiden name STANLEY...
1911 census of Coalville, Leicestershire shows a May GRIFFITHS aged 8 born Garston, Liverpool, described as a niece living with a Richard GRIFFITHS, his wife Frances, aged 36 born Leicestershire, and servant Sarah E STANLEY...Richard GRIFFITHS appears to have married a Frances BOWNES...Frances STANLEY married Charles William BOWN at St Andrew's church Whitwick on 5 March 1898...Janet
Click to expand...
Pipped me at several posts!! Thank you! I must not ask why all this...?
 
Could Richard Charles Griffiths have previously married another Frances? eg
FreeBMD Marriages Sep 1900
Davis Frances Violetta Leicester 7a 487
Griffiths Richard Charles Leicester 7a 487
I'll check if there are any children Griffiths-Davis that are theirs (could be thousands with those Welsh surnames...).

Another possibility/red herring:
Marriages Dec 1898
GRIFFITHS Richard Henry Forden 11b 352
PARRY Frances Forden 11b 352
or Perry?
 
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Sorry I haven't been back earlier, our Internet went down on Wednesday and was only restored last night. Richard Charles GRIFFITHS actually married Amelia KNIGHT on 4 August 1900, he being aged 22, a Book Binder, Frances Violetta DAVIS married Albert HOPEWELL on the same day - both images available on FMP. Richard Charles & Amelia GRIFFITHS are living in Leicester in the 1901/11 & 1921 census records. Richard Henry GRIFFITHS is living in Forden, Montgomeryshire in the 1901 census together with wife Frances, he being described as a Printer Compositor, the next entry down being a Richard PARRY & his family - Frances's father?? 1911 census they are both still in Forden. So, I think you can probably eliminate both of these as having anything to do with your Frances STANLEY.

However, Charles William BOWN(ES) is proving extremely elusive to me. I cannot find a death record for him, nor can I find him in any census records with any certainty so far and nor can I find a Frances BOWN(ES) in the 1901 census either. His father is supposedly a James BOWN.

Richard GRIFFITHS was born in Hyderabad, Madras, East India and was a Private Soldier living in Taunton Barracks in the 1891 census. His Army Service record is available to view on FMP but he was apparently discharged as medically unfit in 1892 so unfortunately no details about any marriages although his mother is shown as a Margaret GRIFFITHS living in Derbyshire. I cannot find him in the 1901 census either although I have just spotted a Richard GRIFFITHS living in West Derby with his mother Margaret although they are both shown as born in Phwelli. And of course, I cannot find a death record for Richard with any certainty either!! Was Frances a serial bigamist??

Sorry, I didn't explain very well. The dots were because I couldn't read the street name on the baptismal record after the first 3 letters.

Janet
 
janetbooth said:
...I think you can probably eliminate both of these as having anything to do with your Frances STANLEY.

Janet
Click to expand...
Frances had 3 husbands (Charles WIlliam Bownes/Bown/Bowen- birth registered as Bowen with mother Hurst; Richard Charles Griffiths and Thomas Cheesman/Chessman) and Thomas Cheesman/Chessman had 3 wives (Annie Elizabeth Price, Martha Thomas and Frances Stanley)!! No wonder the Censuses and birth records are so tangled! Some of the offspring of various marriages informally changed their surnames at some stage as well (and back again), further muddying the ancestral waters. I still have a hold on the DNA but it's a slippery grip! I have all this laid out on my family tree and it looks very messy.
 
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