Looking for Frederick Wilson

Leann

Leann

New Member
We are trying to find more info about our great great grandfather Frederick Wilson and his son . we have two references for Frederick senior, Firstly recorded on a baptism record dated 7/10/1891 (Birkenhead)for his son Frederick Knight Gordon Wilson, occupation seaman . Second reference is on sons wedding certificate again Birkenhead dated 1912 , occupation now is master mariner for the Merchant Service. Possibly found a link with some merchant “grading” certificates between 1891 and 1897 - he went from second mate to Master, no idea how to track his personal details from these certificates. Does anyone know if there is a way of doing this.
We have found out that Frederick Knight Gordon Wilson was adopted by the Knight family unsure of dates but before 1895 when his mum Jemima / Mina Roberts / Wilson married William Edgar Knight.
Sorry for a long post - we are very new to this , all advice will be gratefully received
 
Welcome in Leann.
His marriage lited to Eliza Bell in 1912

There is a death for him via Ancestry in 1919 aged 27. Is this your man?
Name Frederick K G Wilson
Death Age 27
Birth Date abt 1892
Registration Date Apr 1919
[May 1919]
[Jun 1919]
Registration Quarter Apr-May-Jun
Registration district Birkenhead
Inferred County Cheshire
Volume 8a
Page 490
...........
 
Hi yes that’s our great grandad he was killed in an accident at 27 years old - it is his very young years where we are stuck - we think he was born in a work house in Liverpool but his mum Jemima Roberts changed her name’s constantly so it gets tricky , his dad our great great grandfather is even more difficult to find , thank you for replying
 
Okay, I am a tad confused.

When Frederick Knight Gordon WILSON was baptised, that was on 7th October 1891 and his parents are names as Frederick and Jemima WILSON.

When Mina WILSON weds William Edgar KNIGHT on 5th May 1895, whilst she gives her surname as ROBERTS (you said that she kept changing her name) she gave her age as 18, meaning that she was born about 1877

This would also mean that she was just 14 at the baptism of FKGW.

Looking on the GRO website, there is a birth registration for a Jemima ROBERTS in Birkenhead in the March quarter of 1877, mother's maiden name being MURPHY, which looks like her.

Looking at the 1901 census, the first one on which FKGW would appear, living at 46 Flint Street, Birkenhead, Cheshire, are William Edgar KNIGHT, Mina and their children George (b c1897) and Harold (b c1899) but there is no sign of FKGW with them.

Therefore, I am not sure that FKGW's mother Jemima is the same one that wed William Edgar KNIGHT.
 
I notice there are two boarders with William Edgar Knight
and Mina in the 1911 Census, James Wilson aged 32 and
married and Joseph Wilson aged 24 and unmarried both from
what looks like ?Hilburn / Newtown, Durham. They are
boilermakers at Cammell Laird yard as I presume was William,
Mina's father. Have you tried to check them out?
 
Yes Jan, but checking out all the evidences it would seem she
did have the child at 14/15 years old. I have not found
Frederick Knight Gordon Wilson or other combination in
the 1911 Census as yet.

It also makes it that much more difficult to trace the given
father Frederick Wilson as he was a seaman, and we know
how they have this infuriating habit or being at sea on
Census Day!
 
burt said:
Yes Jan, but checking out all the evidences it would seem she
did have the child at 14/15 years old.
Click to expand...
Okay, certainly possible, so could the information at the baptism be a fabrication? Not married to William WILSON? :headbang:
 
She is given as single at her marriage.

As I understand it the father would need to be present
at the Baptism in order for him to be included.
But, as you suggest, the information is only as good as
the person supplying it, and if the 'husband' was away
at sea he could not be there!

The other thing that is unexplained is how the child
obtained a second name of Knight at Baptism and then
the mother afterward marries a Knight?

Further I cannot as yet find a record of the child's birth.
If indeed the child was adopted by a member of the
Knight family, and this being before a legal adoption
system was in place, perhaps the Knights organised
the Baptism and indeed may have fabricated the name
of the father! I say child because he may have been
Registered under a very different name!
 
There is on FMP some entries in Workhouse Admissions for
Liverpool Workhouse which look promising and if right refute
Frederick as being the child of Jemima/Mina. Rather he would
be the child of Minnie with a father called Frederick, address
unknown. Minnie was aged 20 of 13, Epworth Street.
Admitted 7th June 1891 as Laying in the Surgical section.
Frederick one day old. CofE. There is a note see 4773.
That is for Ann Roberts, 41, admitted 1st June of 10, Spring
Place, for Medical, discharged also 14th July as is Minnie.
Husband David, Cof E unknown for address.
Child David, 8, admitted same day, same address, CofE,
discharged 5th June to school.
 
Daft Bat said:
Okay, certainly possible, so could the information at the baptism be a fabrication? Not married to William WILSON? :headbang:
Click to expand...
burt said:
She is given as single at her marriage.

As I understand it the father would need to be present
at the Baptism in order for him to be included.
But, as you suggest, the information is only as good as
the person supplying it, and if the 'husband' was away
at sea he could not be there!

The other thing that is unexplained is how the child
obtained a second name of Knight at Baptism and then
the mother afterward marries a Knight?

Further I cannot as yet find a record of the child's birth.
If indeed the child was adopted by a member of the
Knight family, and this being before a legal adoption
system was in place, perhaps the Knights organised
the Baptism and indeed may have fabricated the name
of the father! I say child because he may have been
Registered under a very different name!
Click to expand...
 
We have a theory that Mina may have had the baby with William Edgar Knight but given her age it was hushed over - his mum Sarah knight agreed to take baby on adding knight into the name . Seems a coincidence that 4 years later she married William Edgar -
It’s really frustrating especially with Mina using different surnames and multiple variations of Jemima. We did find FKGW obituary notice in Birkenhead news put in by Sarah Knight stating beloved adopted son ‍♀️
 
Don't know if this is worth a punt or not, but there is a GRO birth registration at Liverpool reg district in the September qtr 1891 for a Frederick ROBERTS, no mother's maiden name shown, which usually indicates an illegitimate birth. Could this tie in with Burt's post above?

I am also somewhat confused. According to William Edgar's parish register marriage entry at Liverpool St Nicholas to Mina ROBERTS, his father was Thomas George KNIGHT, a Joiner, deceased. In the 1891 census of Birkenhead (RG12/2886, folio 33, page 18), William E KNIGHT born c1874 in Tranmere is living with parents Thomas G, a Joiner & Fanny KNIGHT plus widowed father in law Thomas WILD. In the 1901 census of Birkenhead, William & Mina are living with widowed mother Fanny KNIGHT at 46 Flint Street which ties in with the fact that William's father was deceased according to his marriage record to Mina. So, who is the Sarah KNIGHT who was supposedly William Edgar's mother?

Janet
 
Yes Janet, I was totally absorbed by another pressing matter
yesterday, but that was the very question I had.
It seems to me that whereas Baptism is not a legal requirement
Registering a Birth at this point was, and I can only see the one,
in Liverpool, not two. I think therefore it is the Birth and the
question therefore arises is the child the son of Jemima/Mina or
of a Minnie who has some connection to David & Annie nee Jones
who married in 1876 and David's parents are Edward Roberts and
Jane also formerly Jones. If the former then it is quite a stretch to
give her age as 20! And how does the David connection come in as
it would need to be distant unless that Minnie was born to Annie
Jones before she was married. But I find no trace of this Minnie
in the intervening Census.

I have not as yet seen Census entries for Frederick Knight Gordon
Wilson for either the 1901 and 1911 Census which is the only two
he should appear in.

Lastly there is a tree an Ancestry (I know we don't trust them) but
seems reasonable with Census included, which are direct descendants
of William Edgar Knight and Jemima/Mina Roberts. Found by putting
the last born 1877 Birkenhead. If a DNA check was done it would
prove something one way or the other.
 
Apologies if I've misunderstood anything here, but as the address on FKGWs baptism was Bidston Hill, could this be another candidate for his mother? She'd still be very young though...

1901 - Station Road, Bidston - RG13/3400/12/15
William Wilson 52 Manager Oleo(?) Factory b Aberdeen, Scotland
Minia Wilson 23 daur b Aberdeen
Helen 21 daur b Aberdeen
Madge 19 daur b Aberdeen
James 16 son Butcher b Aberdeen
William 15 son Apprentice Engineer b Birkenhead
May 4 Grandaughter b Scotland

1891 - Jackson Street, Birkenhead - RG12/2878/103/4
William Wilson 42 manager of Fat Works b Scotland
Annie 19 daur
John 17 son
Minnie 14 Pupil Teacher b Scotland
Helen 12
Madjie 9
James 7
William 5

In 1881 they are in St Nicholas, Aberdeen and Minnie's full name is Williamina
 
It doesn't take much, but I'm very confused!

FKGWs marriage certificate doesn't seem to be online, but from the FreeBMD index he appears to have been recorded under two names:
Frederick KNIGHT - and -
Frederick KG WILSON
The bride for both entries is Eliza M Bell.

He first appears on the 1901 census at Rose Cottage, Boundary Road, Bidston (Boundary Road also being his baptism address) as the son of George & Sarah KNIGHT (nee Rogerson). He's still there in 1911.

1901: RG13, Piece 3400, Folio 11, Page 14
1911: RG14, Piece 22050, Schedule 67

In 1891 George, Sarah & family are at Bidston Cottage, Bidston Hill - RG12, Piece 2893, Folio 17, Page 30.

They do have a son named William Knight, but he's not William Edgar Knight, he's William Keay Knight:

KNIGHT, WLLIAM KEAY mmn ROGERSON GRO Reference: 1874 J Quarter in BIRKENHEAD Volume 08A Page 519

What evidence - if any - do you have that William Edgar Knight and Mina Roberts have got anything at all to do with FKGW? Personally I don't think that they do, but I'm happy to be proved wrong :)

It might be helpful if you could attach a copy of the 1912 marriage certificate or alternatively type out exactly what is written on it, including the names of the witnesses.
 
To add to what @Andromeda has found, according to a tree on FS Frederick is the youngest of 12 to George Knight and Sarah. Wiliam Keay (Kay) their son born in 1874 married Ethel Fogg in 1893. The spelling of Keay is a worry as sometimes it is Kay sometimes Kaye. He has numerous children but his occupations starts as a labourer in 1896 then in 1915 he is a Marine Fireman. There is also a entry for Military Service for William Kaye Knight born Cheshire in 1874.
 
I spent hours on this yesterday, but in the end had to go to bed without posting my findings on here.

I tracked both the KNIGHT families (Fanny - mother of William Edgar and Sarah - who appears to have adopted Frederick K G) but cannot find a connection between the two.


The newspaper article you mention has Sarah KNIGHT living at Rose Cottage - she can be found there in the 1921 and 1901 census. 1901, 1911 and 1921 census gives her address as Boundary Road - the address on Frederick K G's baptism. She also has a son Frederick born 1892 with her in the 1901 and 1911 census.

Of the 12 children she says on the 1911 census that she had whilst married (and taking their names from the various census with her, I can find 9 with mother's maiden name Rogerson and 3 with no mother's maiden name. Frederick, if he was hers, would make it 13.

I was going to ask the same question as @Andromeda regarding what evidence you have for William Edgar and Mina being the parents of Frederick K G.
 
Me too! Well spotted Andromeda & Jellylegs. I too could not find anything linking William Edgar with Frederick K G but I had to break off yesterday morning and didn't manage to get back to any research until just now. I think we need more details of what evidence Leann actually has regarding Frederick K G. At the start of my research, I went round in circles trying to find evidence of my maternal grandmother's parents using family correspondence etc. and in the end it turned out that she always referred to her grandparents as Mum & Dad even in newspaper articles, letters, postcards and her marriage record, her mother having died when she was very young.

Janet
 
Leann said:
we have two references for Frederick senior, Firstly recorded on a baptism record dated 7/10/1891 (Birkenhead)for his son Frederick Knight Gordon Wilson, occupation seaman . Second reference is on sons wedding certificate again Birkenhead dated 1912 , occupation now is master mariner for the Merchant Service. Possibly found a link with some merchant “grading” certificates between 1891 and 1897 - he went from second mate to Master, no idea how to track his personal details from these certificates. Does anyone know if there is a way of doing this.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if this is the same man as you don't give any specific details, but there was a Frederick William Wilson who became a master mariner, and is described as such in the 1911 census:

22 Gordon Road, Seaforth, Lancs
Frederick William Wilson 49 Master Mariner Merchant Service b Liverpool

He married Caroline Edith Walby in 1893, Liverpool, but is missing from the 1891 census - presumaby at sea.

His eldest son is Frederick William Walby Wilson born 1895.
 
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