Thomas Chasmer d 1834 Bermondsey London UK

G

Godfrey Chasmer

New Member
My 3rd great grandfather was Thomas Chasmer. My query is to find his DOB, place of birth or parents’ names.

He lived his adult life in the Bermondsey area. He married Ann Robertson, a widow born Willis, on 3dec1810 at St James, Paddington. Ann was born on 11feb1776 in Bermondsey.

Thomas died on 16oct1834 and was buried on 26oct1834 at St John Horsleydown Bermondsey. The death certificate gives his age as 55. So if this info is accurate he was born between 16oct1779 – 15oct1780.

Thomas and Ann had four children but none of their birth or marriage info gives any guide as to Thomas’s birth details including Sarah Ann’s which was registered at the Protestant Dissenters' Registry.

Thomas was convicted of larceny and amongst the court documents is one dated 5oct1821 which gives Thomas’s age as 41. If this is accurate then his birth dated was between 5oct1780 – 4oct1781.

So from the calculations from the death certificate and larceny document there is a DOB between 5oct1780 – 15oct1780.

There is little evidence of Chasmers in Bermondsey before the 19c.

However, there is a large group of families in and around the Benenden and Tenterden areas of Kent from the 1500s onwards. The name CHASMER is often recorder as CHASMAR and other variations.

There is a Thomas CHASMER the son of Thomas Chasmer and Ann Primer who was baptised on the 11may1781 in Benenden. I can find no other life information on this Thomas (his DOB, marriage, death etc). So he could have been born in the window of dates I have for the Thomas in Bermondsey. In both cases there is no mention of another Christian name.

Thomas of Kent has siblings but Catherine was the one born before him having been christened on 11feb1780. Catherine was buried on the 19feb1780 so it is possible that the birth was shortly before the christening. So this does not discount Thomas being born between 5oct1780 – 15oct1780 although the dates are tight.

So back to my query. Can anyone help finding info to link these two Thomases or to find birth information on the Thomas of Bermondsey.
 
I don't know if you've seen the report of Thomas's crime in the papers, but it is as follows -

Commercial Chronicle 30th October 1821
A man named Thomas Chasmer was indicted for feloniously stealing a piece of leather, the property of Mr S. Collard, a shoemaker. It appeared that the prosecutor had been robbed for a considerable time past of leather, and used every means to detect the thieves without effect but the prisoner, who had worked for him a long time, was, on account of his high character for religion and reputation, as a preacher to a numerous Methodist congregation, the last man on whom his suspicions could have fallen. On the 4th of October some leather was marked, and when the prisoner came for work, as usual, one of the prosecutor's apprentices kept a watch upon him from the parlour. The prisoner was seen to slide a piece of the marked leather, which was lying on the counter, into his bag, upon the shopman turning his back. The prisoner then left the shop, but was followed and brought back, when the leather was found in his possession. It was identified by Mr Collard as his property. The prisoner, in his defence, admitted that the leather in question had been found in his possession, but declared that he had no intention of converting it to his own use, but that he had brushed it into his bag by accident. The possibility of this was positively denied by the witnesses. Several persons of the prisoner's acquaintance came forward, and gave him an excellent character as a man of pious ways. The Jury found him Guilty; when the Chairman, Mr Harrison, animadverted on the peculiar enormity of the prisoner's conduct in assuming religion as a cloak to enable him to rob with security. The Court sentenced him to be imprisoned for 24 months to hard labour in the county gaol. The sentence to hard labour evidently disconcerted the prisoner, whose exterior displayed the greatest meekness.

I know that doesn't help with his DOB, but it does suggest that you need to be looking at non-conformist records.
 
Thank you for your message. As I said in my post some of my information comes from the records of his larceny trial and conviction. I also mention that I have researched the non-conformists records. I have spoken to an archivist dealing with these records and been unable to find the information I am searching for.
 
There is this christening ?

Thomas Chasmer
Christening - 11 May 1781, Benenden, Kent, England, United Kingdom
Father's Name - Thomas Chasmer
Mother's Name - Ann Chasmer

Possible parent's marriage.

Marriage date, 31 Dec 1776, Benenden, Kent
Thomas Chasmar (sic)
Ann Primer
 
That I don't know. I gave up researching my paternal line for the same reason. I got back to the mid 1600's. Any earlier than that would have been a best guess on who the parents of my 6th great grandfather were.
 
If this was my family, I would start by making a tree for the family of Thomas Chasmer and Ann in Beneden.
I would also consider any births +/- 2 years minimum on the years that you have, ages were not always known - just guessed at.
Was Thomas in Beneden connected with the shoe trade/leather working?
Did Thomas snr leave a will.
Check the other known children of this marriage.
Did any of them also end up in London.
Does he appear as a witness on any of the potential siblings marriage?
I see he signed his name on his marriage so a chance to compare signatures.
Are there any naming patterns, from the potential parents/siblings, with his children?
A dna test might prove useful as well.
Apologies if you have already done these, but that is how I would approach the puzzle, as pre census/civil registration it is difficult to get the proof, that you require, to have any certainty this is your family.
 
Hello Godfrey and welcome to the forum.

To summarise, but also to suggest alternative routes...

Thomas died 16th October 1834, his age being given as 55. As you say, if this information is accurate (and it is only as accurate as the knowledge of the person providing that information) then he would have been born about 1779/1780.

If this is the same chap, he was convicted of Larceny in October 1821, his age being given as 41. This again points to a birth of about 1779/1780. The newspaper reports refer to his being a preacher to a Methodist congregation. But this does not necessarily mean that he was born into a non-conformist family. (I have ancestors who were CofE and who converted later in life.)

However, one thing to remember is that age was not as important to folk back then as it is today. Therefore, unless a date of birth was recorded somewhere (sometimes in the baptism register), then the chances of discovering an actual date of birth are slim.

Looking at available records online, there does not appear to be any other candidate for your Thomas apart from the chap who was from Benenden. However, this does not mean that it definitely was him.

It might be worth researching this Thomas’ siblings to see if there are any other possible connections – for example, one may have also moved the 50-odd miles from Benenden to Bermondsey.

Also, if the chap who stole the leather was working for a Shoemaker, there could be apprenticeship records available. If there are, they would probably be held by either the Guildhall Library or the London Metropolitan Archives.

As I was writing this, I see that @MollyMay has also offered a similar route - and more!
 
Old Bailey on line:
8/4/1861. Hearing for William Pearce, coining offences.
First witness was a Thomas Chasmer, bootmaker of 68 Wesson Street Bermondsey.
Not that it helps at all but could this be his son, Thomas?
 
MollyMay said:
If this was my family, I would start by making a tree for the family of Thomas Chasmer and Ann in Beneden.
I would also consider any births +/- 2 years minimum on the years that you have, ages were not always known - just guessed at.
Was Thomas in Beneden connected with the shoe trade/leather working?
Did Thomas snr leave a will.
Check the other known children of this marriage.
Did any of them also end up in London.
Does he appear as a witness on any of the potential siblings marriage?
I see he signed his name on his marriage so a chance to compare signatures.
Are there any naming patterns, from the potential parents/siblings, with his children?
A dna test might prove useful as well.
Apologies if you have already done these, but that is how I would approach the puzzle, as pre census/civil registration it is difficult to get the proof, that you require, to have any certainty this is your family.
Click to expand...

Thank you that is very helpful
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Daft Bat said:
Hello Godfrey and welcome to the forum.

To summarise, but also to suggest alternative routes...

Thomas died 16th October 1834, his age being given as 55. As you say, if this information is accurate (and it is only as accurate as the knowledge of the person providing that information) then he would have been born about 1779/1780.

If this is the same chap, he was convicted of Larceny in October 1821, his age being given as 41. This again points to a birth of about 1779/1780. The newspaper reports refer to his being a preacher to a Methodist congregation. But this does not necessarily mean that he was born into a non-conformist family. (I have ancestors who were CofE and who converted later in life.)

However, one thing to remember is that age was not as important to folk back then as it is today. Therefore, unless a date of birth was recorded somewhere (sometimes in the baptism register), then the chances of discovering an actual date of birth are slim.

Looking at available records online, there does not appear to be any other candidate for your Thomas apart from the chap who was from Benenden. However, this does not mean that it definitely was him.

It might be worth researching this Thomas’ siblings to see if there are any other possible connections – for example, one may have also moved the 50-odd miles from Benenden to Bermondsey.

Also, if the chap who stole the leather was working for a Shoemaker, there could be apprenticeship records available. If there are, they would probably be held by either the Guildhall Library or the London Metropolitan Archives.

As I was writing this, I see that @MollyMay has also offered a similar route - and more!
Click to expand...
Thank you for your advice. I will follow this and MollyMay's ideas
 
https://nonsenselit.com/2017/07/02/edward-lears-canadian-cousins/

I have been taken by the baptism of possible sibling George Augustus Chesner in Whitechapel in 1886. Parents Thomas Chesner and Sarah. Baptism by Joseph Brook Bank , protestant dissenting minister.(FMP)

Possible marriage in 1773 of Thomas Chesner and Sarah Lear.(FS)

This led me to the website about Edward Lear (above) which suggests that when Sarah Chesner (nee Lear)'s mother Margaret died in 1795, Margaret left money to Sarah, and £5 to Sarah's son's Thomas and Charles and a watch to son Henry.
Could Sarah's son Thomas be a possibility for your Thomas?

I don't know how accurate the research is for the Lear website but it may be worth checking on Margaret Lear's 1795 will for yourself.
 
Grizel said:
https://nonsenselit.com/2017/07/02/edward-lears-canadian-cousins/

I have been taken by the baptism of possible sibling George Augustus Chesner in Whitechapel in 1886. Parents Thomas Chesner and Sarah. Baptism by Joseph Brook Bank , protestant dissenting minister.(FMP)

Possible marriage in 1773 of Thomas Chesner and Sarah Lear.(FS)

This led me to the website about Edward Lear (above) which suggests that when Sarah Chesner (nee Lear)'s mother Margaret died in 1795, Margaret left money to Sarah, and £5 to Sarah's son's Thomas and Charles and a watch to son Henry.
Could Sarah's son Thomas be a possibility for your Thomas?

I don't know how accurate the research is for the Lear website but it may be worth checking on Margaret Lear's 1795 will for yourself.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the information. I have come across the Lear link before but I'll go back and have another look and particular follow your comments. Many thanks.
 
Archie's Mum said:
Old Bailey on line:
8/4/1861. Hearing for William Pearce, coining offences.
First witness was a Thomas Chasmer, bootmaker of 68 Wesson Street Bermondsey.
Not that it helps at all but could this be his son, Thomas?
Click to expand...
This indeed his son. Here are more details of the hearing:

401. WILLIAM PEARCE (38), was indicted for a like offence.

MESSRS. W. J. PAYNE and POLAND conducted the Prosecution.

THOMAS CHASMER . I am a bootmaker of 68, Wesson-street, Bermondsey—on Saturday, 2d March, the prisoner came there and asked me what I charged for heeling and clumping Wellington boots—I told him 4s.—he said he wanted them done in a very great hurry—I told him I could not do them that night, and he said, "To-morrow?"—I said, "I do not work on a Sunday"—he asked me when I could do them and I said not before Tuesday, at dinner-time, if ho would let me have them by Monday—he then said, "To make sure I will not disappoint you in bringing the boots I will give you a shilling on account"—he gave me a florin, and I gave him 1s. change—it was either George the 4th or 6th—he then said, "Now, I have got to give you 2s. when you have done the job"—I said, "No, you have to give me 3s."—he said, "I have made a mistake; I am very sorry, but I really cannot afford it; if you return me my 2s. piece back again, I will give you your shilling," and I immediately gave him the 2s. piece, and received, as I supposed, my own shilling back again—I put the shilling he gave me aside; he left shortly afterwards—about a quarter of an hour after he was gone, I looked at the shilling and found it was bad—it was a Victoria one—I put it on one side, and afterwards, when he was apprehended, gave it to the police-constable.

Prisoner. Q. Have you never seen a man like me before? A. Not exactly—I know it was you.

JANE TARRANT . I am the wife of Thomas Tarrant, a shoemaker, at Brook-street, Bermondsey—on Friday, 8th March, between 5 and 6, the prisoner came—I opened the door to him—he asked what we would clump and heel a pair of Wellington boots for—my husband told him 3s. 6d.—he said he would send them in half an hour, and said he would pay 1a on them, and they were to be done on the Saturday morning—he gave me half-a-crown, and I gave him a shilling and six-pennyworth of coppers—he then asked how much he had to pay, and my husband told him 2s. 6d.—he then said he thought they were to be half-a-crown—my husband told him he could not do them for that, and told me to give him the half-crown back, and have my change—I gave him the half-crown, and he gave me a shilling and six penny-worth of coppers—he placed the money in my hand, and I put it in my pocket without looking at it—after he had gone about three-quarters of an hour, I discovered that the shilling was bad—I had no more in my pocket but what he gave me—I had no other shilling there—after he gave me the money back, he stood at the room door and said he would send the boots in an hour, and we were to do them as cheap as we could—he never sent—I took the shilling he had given me to the station, marked it, and left it with the inspector—I saw him on the Saturday fortnight following—I followed him from Bermondsey New-road into Long-lane, and gave him in custody.

Prisoner. Q. What is it you swear to me by? A. Your countenance—I looked in your face hard all the time you were speaking to my husband—he is not here—he is the only one who was in the shop.

ISAAC STACEY . I am a shoemaker, of Russell-street, Bermondsey—on 14th March, the prisoner came and asked me how much I would sole and heel his boots for—I said, "Three shillings"—he gave me a 2s. piece, and said, "I will leave a shilling to make sure of the job"—then he turned round, and said, "I shall have to give you a shilling when the boots is done"—I said, "No, two shillings"—I then gave him the 2s. piece back, and he gave me a shilling—I put it in my pocket—I had no other shilling there—I kept it in my pocket till 10 o'clock—I then gave it to my wife to go on an errand—she brought it back to me bent—I threw it in the fire the next day, and it melted.

Prisoner. Q. Am I the man that gave you the 2s. piece? A. I cannot swear positively, for I did not take particular notice of you, but I have not the least doubt you are—my mother was present—when I saw you at the station-house, I said that you were not the man; I could not swear you were the man.

SARAH STACEY . I wag present on 14th March, when the prisoner came to my son's house about heeling some shoes—I saw him give my son a 2s. piece—he afterwards had that back again, and gave my son a shilling in change.

Prisoner. Q. When you saw me at the police-station, when you were asked if the man was there, did not you say, "No, there is none of them there," until the constable stopped you, and said, "Look again!" A. No—I can swear to you now by your countenance, voice, and the colour of your hair.

ELIZABETH STACEY . I am the wife of Isaac Stacey—on the night of 14th March, my husband gave me what I believed to be a shilling—I offered it in payment for some things that I went out to buy—I did not lose sight of it—it was returned to me as bad—I took it home to my husband—he put it in the fire, and it melted.

JOHN BASTON (Policeman, M 74). On 23d March, Mrs. Tarrant gave the prisoner in my custody—I searched him, and found a good florin on him—I produce two counterfeit shillings, one of which I received from Mr. Chasmer, and one from Mrs. Tarrant.

WILLIAM WEBSTER . These are both bad.

Prisoner's Defence. Do you think, if I wanted a pair of boots done, that I should take my boots and want to pay some money besides? Would not my boots be security enough? I am not taken in the act of passing bad money, neither is bad money found on me.

GUILTY .— Confined Nine Months.
 
Godfrey Chasmer said:
Thanks for the information. I have come across the Lear link before but I'll go back and have another look and particular follow your comments. Many thanks.
Click to expand...
I can see that the Chesner family appear to have a degree of wealth possibly coming from the Lear family, whereas your Thomas is a shoemaker. It would be good to find more about Thomas Chesner even if only to eliminate him.
 
Godfrey Chasmer said:
Thank you for your message. As I said in my post some of my information comes from the records of his larceny trial and conviction. I also mention that I have researched the non-conformists records. I have spoken to an archivist dealing with these records and been unable to find the information I am searching for.
Click to expand...
Was your archivist able to check the non conformist records in detail, not just baptisms and burials? I believe that many Methodists and other dissenters kept all sorts of detailed records such as lists of members and of various events and activities that may have taken place.

It would be worth starting with the particular congregation that Thomas was part of.
 
Godfrey Chasmer said:
Thank you that is very helpful
Click to expand...
UPDATE ON RESEARCH
Was Thomas in Benenden connected with the shoe trade/leather working?
NO
Did Thomas snr leave a will.
NO TOO POOR
Check the other known children of this marriage.
Did any of them also end up in London.
NO ALL STAYED NEAR BENEDEN OR DIED YOUNG
Does he appear as a witness on any of the potential siblings marriage?
1 SIBLING ROBERT HAS A THOMAS CHASMER AS HIS WITNESS. IF IS THOMAS (D1834) THEN HE WOULD HAVE BEEN 17 YEARS OF AGE. IT COULD HAVE BEEN HIS FATHER WHO WAS STILL ALIVE
2 ONLY OTHER SIBLING TO MARRY IS SALLY AND SHE ALSO HAD A THOMAS AS A WITNESS. IF IS THOMAS (D1834) THEN HE WOULD HAVE BEEN 28 YEARS OF AGE AND ALSO IT WAS A YEAR BEFORE HIS MARRIAGE IN PADDINGTON. IT COULD HAVE BEEN HIS FATHER WHO WAS STILL ALIVE
3 THERE ARE NO FAMILY WITNESSES ON THE MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE THAT THOMAS (D1834) SIGNED (SEE BELOW)
I see he signed his name on his marriage so a chance to compare signatures.
I AM TRYING TO GET COPIES OF BOTH THE SIBLINGS MARRIAGE CERTIFCIATES TO CHECK SIGNATURES
Are there any naming patterns, from the potential parents/siblings, with his children?
HE HAD THREE CHILDREN – THOMAS, ANN AND SARAH ANN
THOMAS IS BOTH HIS NAME AND POSSIBLY HIS FATHER’S
ANN IS HIS WIFE’S NAME AND POSSIBLEY HIS MOTHER’S
SARAH HAS NO KNOWN LINK
A dna test might prove useful as well.
MY DNA SHOWS 34% ENGLAND AND NW EUROPE ON MY FATHER SIDE. IT MENTIONS A LINK TO DEVON AND CORNWALL BUT NO MENTION OF KENT OR SOUTHERN ENGLAND. IF THE DNA RESULTS CAN BE TRUSTED THIS IS A NEGATIVE TO THOMAS (D1834) HAVING HIS ROOTS IN KENT.
 
Hard to find and not sure if you have these from other on line enquiries but in 1861 Thomas surname is listed as CHARMER born 1815 St Olave, bookmaker Weston Street Bermondsey.
1851 he is Thomas CHASONER, Weston Street Bermondsey, cordwainer.
1841 he is Thomas Chasmer born Surrey. With him is (mother) Ann Chasmer born 1777 Surrey but also there is 38 year old Mary Chasmer born 1803. Might be interesting to find out who she is. You only have two other siblings for Thomas and Mary isn’t one. Thomas’ father married in 1810. Maybe daughter of Ann’s previous marriage?
 
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