Another attempt to date photograph

[thalauafu]

I originally put this photo up when I first joined Top Dog, but didn't do a very good job of it, so, not having any replies at all with suggestions, I am having another go today. My cousins and I are all in disagreement as to whether the lady in this photo is our grandmother or our great grandmother. If anyone can date the clothing, it might help clarify which it is.

 

[thalauafu]

Sorry guys, it seems that the photo is too large so I will reduce it's size and try again shortly!

 

[thalauafu]

Okay, here we go again.

 

[Archie's Mum]

1880's

 

[HildaW]

Hi Diana, the lady would probably be in her mid twenties, the child about 5. My guess because of the all in one dress with almost mutton leg sleeves and the hairstyle the photo was taken 1880/1890 because by 1910+ the more fashionable dress was a blouse and skirt with the teapot hairstyle. But if the family were not wealthy. clothing could be hired from the photographer's studio or if taken in the colonies it might have taken some years for the latest fashion to become available both for hire or in common usage and therefore the photo could be as late as 1900. Hope this helps.
There is a site but I can't remember it's name, something like dating old Victorian photo's, which can be helpful to try to narrow down.

 

[thalauafu]

Thank you to both Archie's Mum and HildaW - your thoughts have already helped me, but I would appreciate as many other ideas that members might have, after which I will put up some later pictures of the two people it could be, and see if anyone can compare them and perhaps clarify it even more for me!

 

[arryboy]

Okay, here we go again.

Well had a guess using male logic???? my guess was before I read the other replies, and before I conferred with er indoors she said 1870 and I had already said 1880 / 1890. so there you have it, inconclusive from me. arryboy

 

[Jimsgirl]

Thank you to both Archie's Mum and HildaW - your thoughts have already helped me, but I would appreciate as many other ideas that members might have, after which I will put up some later pictures of the two people it could be, and see if anyone can compare them and perhaps clarify it even more for me!

I have a photo of my father, aged about 3, and dressed in similar clothing. He was born in 1895 so the suggested dates seem to fit.

 

[thalauafu]

Further thanks to arryboy (not forgetting 'er indoors) and Jimsgirl. All four members that have made suggestions have helped so much and I cannot thank you all enough.

My mind is so much clearer now, and I have basically made up my mind as to who my mystery lady is. However, just for further thoughts, here are two later in life photographs of the people who are the two persons I am trying to tie the original photograph in with, and here are some details about them so that the sleuths amongst you might like to add additional thoughts, given the timeline and facial likenesses (if any).

Both were born in Greenwich/Woolwich, Kent UK

Charlotte Atwater was my great grandmother, born in 1866. The photograph attached now was taken in 1917 so she would have been about 51. She was married at the age of 17, and had her first child, a son, when she was 23.

Mary Charlotte Evans was Charlotte's daughter, my grandmother. This photograph was taken just prior to her untimely death a few months later. She was born in 1887 and her first born son was not born until 1909.

Cheers and again, many thanks, Diana

 

[Archie's Mum]

Just a small query whilst studying these photos. You say that Charlotte Atwater was born in 1866, her first born, a son, was born when she was 23 (1889 appr), but her daughter Mary Charlotte Evans was born in 1887!

 

[arryboy]

Just a small query whilst studying these photos. You say that Charlotte Atwater was born in 1866, her first born, a son, was born when she was 23 (1889 appr), but her daughter Mary Charlotte Evans was born in 1887!

Good Question

 

[thalauafu]

Just a small query whilst studying these photos. You say that Charlotte Atwater was born in 1866, her first born, a son, was born when she was 23 (1889 appr), but her daughter Mary Charlotte Evans was born in 1887!

Sorry folks.....another senior moment!! Confusion because Charlotte Atwater was born in 1866, gave birth to her first child in December 1883 and married in February 1884, when she was 18! Another son followed in 1885 and then my grandmother in 1887. Just to add to the confusion (and in my own defense), the second son who was named Richard William 'stole' his older brother's identity ...Charles Richard, so that he could run away to join up for the Boer War! It caused no end of problems over the years! As a one time PM of Australia once said "Life wasn't meant to be easy!"

 

[thalauafu]

Good Question

Just testing harryboy! Just testing!

 

[HildaW]

Hi Diana, I believe the lady is Charlotte Atwater because the eyes are the same in both pictures, slightly hooded in the earlier picture but also because it looks as if in both photo's the person has light coloured eyes and fair or red hair in the younger photo. Mary Charlotte Evans looks to have dark eyes and has very dark and thick hair.

 

[thalauafu]

Hi Diana, I believe the lady is Charlotte Atwater because the eyes are the same in both pictures, slightly hooded in the earlier picture but also because it looks as if in both photo's the person has light coloured eyes and fair or red hair in the younger photo. Mary Charlotte Evans looks to have dark eyes and has very dark and thick hair.

Thank you so much Hilda!

That is exactly what I wanted to hear from someone else, as it is, and always has been, my opinion! I have a cousin who is adamant that his mother told him before she died that it was her mother (Mary Charlotte) and he would listen to none of my reasoning about who I thought it was. When I said that the clothes were more in line with our gr. grandmother rather than our grandmother, he just said she would have been wearing hand me downs, but this didn't gel with me!

I agreed wholeheartedly with your comments about the eyes and hair. Again, many thanks for taking time out to help me with this problem. Diana

 

[Archie's Mum]

I was in the middle of sending my two bits worth when I was told by the forum it was doing an upgrade....so here we go again. My thoughts were that the photo of Mary Charlotte very much resembled the young Charlotte in the first photo. But I think her colouring probably would have been more like her father, maybe, as her mother, Charlotte was maybe red or very blonde. The older woman, I am still wondering, as if it was Charlotte then she had changed quite a bit. But then again so have I!

 

[HildaW]

I was about to add more when the site when to sleepies - if the oldest photo the sepia coloured one was the same woman as the younger of the two black and white then she sure did not age and the colour of the photographs are certainly at least 30 years apart - sepia colour before 1900 and black and white after 1900 give or take 10 years on both dates.
I too have UK cousins who refuse to believe a sepia picture is the GGGM when compared to a circa 1910 black and white of what is definitely known by US cousin to be the GGM (written on back!!!) - I am in full agreement with the US cousin because I have researched both photo's within an inch of their lives with a good few photographic experts and learnt much from their expertise which is more than I can say for the one's that don't believe just because they are the UK owners of the sepia photo does not make them right.

 

[Daft Bat]

If you have other photographs, the book Dating 19th Century Photographs might be a good investment.

 

[thalauafu]

Hi Jan, Yes, I had already seen this book on Parish Chest, and have thought about purchasing it, but as this is my only real query re photograph dates (which as already explained, had doubt cast on it because of my cousin), I thought that I would try Top Dog first. When I have a few pennies to spare I might still splash out and buy it though, as I am sure it will be of considerable use over time, even if only to verify what I think I already know!

I really appreciate all the input on my behalf, so thank you to everyone!
Diana

 

[thalauafu]

Just in case anyone is still interested in this and I haven't bored you all to tears I have dug out every photograph that I have available of Charlotte Atwater and of Mary Charlotte Evans. I would, as ever, be interested in any observations you might have.
Diana