Francis or Frances?

Discussion in 'Wiltshire' started by Grace016, Jun 20, 2016.

  1. Grace016

    Grace016 New Member

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    We've been trying to establish the gender of a Francis Church baptised to Isaac Church (cabinet maker) and wife Anna, on 25 Aug 1817, in Bradford-on-Avon.

    The transcript we have does not show the gender, nor does it show which Church the baptism occurred, but I'm assuming it was Holy Trinity.

    Isaac & Anna also had another Francis, baptised in 1810 whom we believe was male, but maybe not.

    The reason we need to establish gender, is that one of them may have been female and had a daughter Sophia Church, baptised in Dec of 1837 in the same church.

    Complicating the matter, is on the 1841 Census showing Isaac & Anna's family,(by this time in Wells Cuthbert In), there is a Francis Church 25 years old, shown in the male column of the census. One of my cousins believes this was an error by the enumerator and that this Francis was actually Frances.

    Is there anyone familiar with the recordings of the baptism records who knows if the gender would have been recorded on the actual record?

    Thanks for your assistance.
     
  2. Sandiep

    Sandiep Successfully Supports Searches!

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    normally Frances is a female and Francis is a male

    sometimes on old records they do put daug of or son of but it tends to be hit or miss
     
  3. Sandiep

    Sandiep Successfully Supports Searches!

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  4. Sis

    Sis Rootles out resources!

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    Have you looked for a marriage under both spellings. Off to work soon or I'd take a look.
     
  5. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One

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    From my experieces it seems if a parish baptism register gives the parent names it usually states also "son of" or "daug of"
     
  6. Grace016

    Grace016 New Member

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    Thank you all for your responses.

    From Sophia's Baptism digital transcript it shows mother as Frances Church with unknown spouse and we took that to mean that Frances was unmarried.

    Then there was the question as to why Isaac & Anna would have 2 living sons named Francis. But the first Francis was baptised 6 months before their next child, a girl named Jane. Now there may be a possibility that the first Francis is not theirs, but another Isaac & Ann, I suppose.

    I did try looking for marriage records for Francis and Frances but with no luck. Nothing that could tie them back to this particular family. That's why we were hoping we'd be able to at least properly establish the gender of the 2 Francis' in question. After 1841 I've not been able to trace either a Francis or Frances that would we could tie back to Isaac & Anna.

    We know that Sophia was raised by her grandparents, Isaac & Anna, to the point that when Sophia married, she showed Isaac as her father on the register. On the 1851 Census, Sophia is shown as their Granddaughter.

    It's something that we may never resolve, but I just have to try.
    The main thing is that Sophia was raised by loving grandparents and went on to raise a large family of her own. But I would dearly love to know about Francis/es.

    I will try the Wiltshire link you suggest, Sandiep. And thank you all again for your input.
    Cheers.
     
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  7. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    Is this the same Francis Church age 40 male in 1851 house servant/keeper born Bradford 1811 now at St Cuthbert Wells Somerset? Age out a bit.
     
  8. Grace016

    Grace016 New Member

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    Hi Archie's Mum,
    The record you refer to, I believe belongs to the Francis Church baptised in 1810. I was also able to find an 1841 and 1861 record for him as well, but lost track of him after that.

    I was just re reading my last post and it's confusing. I had managed to track the 1810 Francis for a time, but not the 1817 Francis, who is shown on the 1841 Census with Isaac and family. Sorry about that.
     
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  9. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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  10. Lone Pine

    Lone Pine Her Grandad would be so proud of her

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    Yeap if it is Francis its a male, if it is Frances, its a girl, I know I have two of them in my life one male and one female.
     
  11. Bay Horse

    Bay Horse Can be a bit of a dark horse

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    That is a possibility. :confused:

    There were a fair few Churches listed in the Bradford Wesleyan records on Ancestry and I hoped the image might've been available there, not Holy Trinity. I think if you could somehow have sight of the original baptism it would confirm it - as they do usually say 'son of' or 'dau of'.

    If would be confusing for parents to have two children called Francis, but not a Frank and a Fanny.

    Francis/Frances is commonly misspelt; my 4th g-grandfather was Francis so I've seen a lot of it on various records. The female form tends to be the one incorrectly recorded in my experience.

    Hmm.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2016
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  12. Sis

    Sis Rootles out resources!

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    From the Wiltshire & Swindon History Centre website
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    http://www.wshc.eu/home/news/item/digitisation-of-parish-registers.html
    Although we have very useful indexed transcripts here (created by the Wiltshire Family History Society and covering baptisms and burials up to 1837), and microfiche copies of the original registers for perusal, .......

    However, we are excited to announce that staff from Ancestry are currently undertaking the digitisation of the baptism, marriage and burial registers held here. These will then be available to view online at Ancestry, and searchable by name, location and date. There are thousands of volumes to digitise, but the team are now well over 25% complete! ‘Don’t count your ancestors before they are indexed’ though – it will be some time before all the digitisation, and subsequent indexing and transcription is complete.


     
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  13. janetbooth

    janetbooth Top Dog Stalwart

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    Ages in the 1841 census were normally rounded down to the nearest 5 years for people over 15. The Francis CHURCH in the 1841 census living with Isaac & Anna is shown as a Male Servant (M S) which is consistent with the occupation of Francis CHURCH in the 1851 census of St Cuthbert Wells where he is shown as a Servant (Horse Keeper) born c1811 in Bradford, Wiltshire. Is the Sophia CHURCH aged 1 living with Isaac & Anna in the 1841 census the Sophia you are referring to in post 6? If so, have you considered that Frances CHURCH may have died as a result of childbirth. The baptism of Sophia CHURCH on 27 December 1837 shows her mother as Frances CHURCH according to Ancestry. You know from census records that Sophia is the granddaughter of Isaac & Anna , therefore Frances CHURCH must be their daughter. You have a male Francis CHURCH who is in the 1841/51/61 census records shown as born c1811 (given the rounding down of ages in the 1841 census), he was baptised as Francis Burdett CHURCH. There is a death registration in the June qtr 1869 at Clutton reg district of a Francis CHURCH, aged 59, giving an approximate birth year of 1810 which fits in very well with the Francis CHURCH in the 1851/61 census records of St Cuthbert Wells. Therefore the most probable scenario is that the elder Francis was male and is still alive up to and including the 1861 census and the younger Francis was female and the mother of Sophia. The only way you are likely to resolve this is to look at the actual parish register records to check that there was no burial of the first Francis, whether the second Francis was a mistranscription of Frances or that said Francis is shown as the daughter of Isaac & Anna and whether she died subsequent to the birth of daughter Sophia or perhaps married in her home parish.

    Hope this helps a bit anyway.

    Janet
     

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