Guild or Livery Records

Blackmogs

Blackmogs

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I have a relative who was a Tailor. He appears in the 1841 and 1851 census' living in London but died in 1859 of tuberculosis. I have never found any apprentice papers for him in the usual online places. I have seen on Mr Google that some Guild or Livery papers exist at the Guildhall in London and I wondered whether he was ever a member of the Guild of Merchant Tailors. After he died his son Frances was admitted to the Grey Coat Hospital School and his sponsor was an Alderman Copeland who I think had a connection with Merchant Tailors. Clutching at straws I know :( . Has anyone ever been to the Guildhall to look for records? I have no idea where to start with this and would appreciate any suggestions.
 
It would appear that the Merchant Taylor's Company records are mainly held at London Metropolitan Archives
cityoflondon.gov.uk/things-to-do/visiting-the-city/archives-and-city-history/london-metropolitan-archives/Documents/visitor-information/17-membership-records-of-the-merchant-taylors-company.pdf
but you can also search the Company's membership index on-line at Docklands Ancestors

The Merchant Taylor's Company's own web site is at merchant-taylors.co.uk/

Ann
 
AnnB said:
It would appear that the Merchant Taylor's Company records are mainly held at London Metropolitan Archives . . .
Click to expand...

Although that leaflet says 'London Metropolitan Archives' across the top of it, and although the records now appear in the LMA catalogue, it sounds from the AIM25 listing as if the records are still at the Guildhall Library:

'IMPORTANT INFORMATION REGARDING ACCESS: These records are stored at the Guildhall Library site rather than the LMA Clerkenwell site. Researchers wishing to access these records should do so at the Guildhall Library Rare Books table. The Library is open Monday to Saturday, 9:30 to 16:45. Researchers will need to have an Archives History Card or a Library Readers Card. An archivist will be available at Guildhall Library on Thursday mornings to answer any queries.'​

Just to confuse things, though, it says at the top of the same page 'Held at London Metropolitan Archives'. :confused:

http://www.
aim25.ac.uk/cgi-bin/vcdf/detail?coll_id=14196&inst_id=118

The LMA website does confirm that 'a few important groups of archives will continue to be housed and consulted at Guildhall Library', including Stock Exchange archives, Lloyd's of London archives (except Captain's Registers) and City of London Livery Company archives:

http://www.
cityoflondon.gov.uk/things-to-do/visiting-the-city/archives-and-city-history/london-metropolitan-archives/visitor-information/Pages/Consulting%20archives%20in%20Guildhall.aspx

Probably best to check before you go, to make sure you are in the right place!
 
If you have not already done so, check Ancestry's 'London, England, Freedom of the City Admission Papers, 1681-1925', which includes many documents relating to membership of London livery companies. There are often several documents about any one person: use the previous/next image buttons to browse around to make sure you don't miss any.

However, do also bear in mind that, though the London livery companies started out as trade guilds, their functions altered over the centuries. Re. the membership of the Merchant Taylors Company, this note from pp. xviii and xix of Rev. H.B. Wilson's History of Merchant-Taylors' School (published in London in 1814; available on Google Books) makes interesting reading:

I trust the Taylors with a y will keep out the Tailors with an i, especially as . . . the latter mode of spelling must unavoidably lead the publick to suppose that the Company is composed of men whose business it is to make clothes, whereas there are none of that trade on the court of the Company; and of the 300 on the livery, which is open to men of all professions, not 10 are to be found who are tailors by trade.​
 
Huncamunca said:
If you have not already done so, check Ancestry's 'London, England, Freedom of the City Admission Papers, 1681-1925', which includes many documents relating to membership of London livery companies. There are often several documents about any one person: use the previous/next image buttons to browse around to make sure you don't miss any.
Click to expand...
I have had a rummage through these Hunc but found nothing for my William Simpson. He is shown on the 1851 as a tailor journeyman but as Peter G pointed out ages ago a journeyman might just have meant that he was a worker rather than that he had served any proper apprenticeship. I think that I will need to contact the Guildhall before setting off. Am flying kites here a bit. :(
 
Blackmogs said:
his sponsor was an Alderman Copeland who I think had a connection with Merchant Tailors.
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The only Copeland who I can find as an Alderman at the right time is William Taylor Copeland, Alderman for Bishopsgate from 1829 until 1868. See this section of Alfred P. Beaven's The Aldermen of the City of London:

http://www.
british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=67244

But this Alderman Copeland belonged to the Goldsmiths' Company not the Merchant Taylors. He was an MP too. You can read more about him on the History of Parliament website:

http://www.
historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1820-1832/member/copeland-william-1797-1868
 
Have you read the brief history of the Grey Coat Hospital School here>
http://www3.
westminster.gov.uk/docstores/publications_store/archives/schools.pdf

There are a couple of books cited as references which may be difficult to access but which would probably give a flavour of the sort of pupils who went to the school and what happened to them. I'll see if I can find any locations.
 
Thanks both. I think that the school was set up in Westminster to give a good education to poor children. I have seen (and held) the school register where Frances was admitted just about 2 months after his father died. It said he was sponsored by Alderman Copeland. He only stayed for 2 years until he was 13. Unlike some of the children there he did not go on to be apprenticed. Some of you have already carried out extensive work on this family, finding all manner of connections and tracking Frances' children, his wife Emma's death and the death of his mother, Mary Ann. It is and always will be William who eludes me. I had a vague hope that if William was an apprentice somewhere it would reveal his father George. :( But I would still be interested in reading about the school Flook if you have any luck.
 
Huncamunca said:
The only Copeland who I can find as an Alderman at the right time is William Taylor Copeland, Alderman for Bishopsgate from 1829 until 1868. See this section of Alfred P. Beaven's The Aldermen of the City of London:

http://www.
british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=67244

But this Alderman Copeland belonged to the Goldsmiths' Company not the Merchant Taylors. He was an MP too. You can read more about him on the History of Parliament website:

http://www.
historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1820-1832/member/copeland-william-1797-1868
Click to expand...

I will check my notes Hunc - I cannot remember where I got the Tailors connection from for the Alderman.
 
Well there are 2 books which would seem worth looking at:

1. E.S. DAY. An old Westminster endowment : being a history of the Grey Coat hospital as recorded in the minute books. Publisher: Hugh Rees, 1902. 292 pages. Available from the British Library on inter-library loan.


2. Vera BURRELL. Lessons from the past : a history of the life of The Grey Coat Hospital. Publisher: Gresham, c1998. 93 pages. ISBN 0946095329. This should be available on inter-library loan.

Day is also available in the Barbican Library and at the Guildhall Library. Burrell is available at the Guildhall Library.
 
Forgive my ignorance - what does an inter-library loan mean? I bet I couldn't borrow them here :)
 
Sorry Blackmogs it's librarian's jargon for getting a book from a library elsewhere (in your case from a non-Kent County Library). It's normal and common practice and don't let your local library put you off. They may charge you extra for the service.

Just give the details I've given you to the Librarian and tell them you want them to borrow a copy for you. For the Day book also tell them that it is at British Library Document Supply, Shelfmark X14/9191. It should only take days.
 
ooooo that is very exciting. I will do that thanks so much Flook. I will let you know how I get on. {-(^^)-}
 
The British Library has one copy of the Burrell in the Humanities & Social Sciences Library at St Pancras. Shelfmark YC.1999.b.3042. They may be willing to lend their copy.
 
There are London Apprenticeship Abstracts on the Origins website. They do charge for access to the records but you can do a free search first to see if there is anything of interest before deciding whether to pay.
 
Flook said:
Well there are 2 books which would seem worth looking at:

1. E.S. DAY. An old Westminster endowment : being a history of the Grey Coat hospital as recorded in the minute books. Publisher: Hugh Rees, 1902. 292 pages. Available from the British Library on inter-library loan.
Click to expand...
I am quite batty Flook. I played around with Mr Google last night and turned up a copy of this in Canadia on an auction website :) It was extremely reasonable and the buy it now price included postage. So, now I get to read it and then have a couple of options. If it is interesting enough I keep it if it is not then I find someone who would like to own it. Society of Genealogists might. They collect all sorts of stuff. In any event, one down and one to order from the library later today. Thanks so much again.
 
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