James White

[MollyMay]

I have been going round and round in circles with this lot for days now and would appreciate someone with plenty of time to go through and see if any of this stacks up.
I am trying to find the family of James White.

On 2/4/1893 at St John Limehouse Sarah Cotton married James White
He is 20 she 19. James gives his father as James White costermonger - address 59 Duckett St.
The witnesses are George Cotton (Sarah's brother) and Jane white - cert on Anc.

Forward to the 1901 census - 112 Eastfields St. Limehouse RG13/320/52/43
James White b1873 Stepney Dock Labourer
Sarah white b1875 Limehouse
Eliza Calton (should be Cotton - Sarah's sister) boarder b1870 Limehouse
James White b1895 Limehouse
Eliza White b1897 Limehouse
Sarah White b1900 Limehouse
This is the only census that definitively shows the James White I am seeking.
Another son is born - George Daniel on 30/12/1901
Sarah White died 1902 and was buried 18/7/1902 Tower Hamlets Cemetery.
Sarah born 1899 died 1903
The 2 boys end up in industrial schools and the army
Eliza lives with her aunt Eliza Cotton
In 1908 on son James Williams attestation to the Cameron Highlanders James snr has an address of 148 Upper North Street Poplar
I have not found James after 1901 but he is not noted as dec. on the m/c for son James (b1895) in 1919 where his occupation is given as a labourer nor on Eliza's in 1921 where his occupation is given as dock labourer

Looking at the 1891 census (he is not living at the Duckett St, address on the m/c) I found
Living at 59 North St., Limehouse RG12/294/7/8
James White wid b1842 Stepney - hawker
James White son b872 carman's labourer (but this is not what is entered on the m/c to Sarah)
Could this be James?

Back to 1881 living at 8 Bale St, Mile End Old Town RG11/483/54/50
James White b1847 Stepney - general dealer
Ellen White b1855 Ratcliff Middx
James White son age 0 (8 months on original)
But there is bap at St John Limehouse for James White s/o James & Ellen of 14 Bale St. James being a greengrocer (James White married Ellen Pamela Cole in 1871 - there is a birth reg for James White mmn Cole Sept qtr 1872 MEOT 1c 566
So I am making things fit and the James on the 1881 census should be 8 years not 8 months?
I cannot find James and Ellen in 1891, nor a credible death for Ellen.

The James that is bap to James and Ellen has a dob of 12/7/1872. He can be found on the 1939 reg. and is a pensioner with inferred wife Ellen.
On 1921 census - 18 Broomfield St. James b1871 Stepney dock Labourer, Ellen b1865 Stepney
I cannot find James White in 1911 (he is not at the Upper North Street addres) either with or without Ellen, nor a credible marriage.
I am getting confused with the possible 2 James (father and son) both with wife Ellen

Added to all of the above who is the Jane White, witness at the marriage of James to Sarah Cotton?

With apologies for the length of this post, but I wanted to include what I have found, to save duplication

 

[Londoner]

1911 30 Entich St MEOT RD21, ED 09, Piece 1625. James Dock Lab. Sarah and 6 children
21 Aug 1915 James White widr, to Ellen Wicks widow nee Buttle @ St James Bromley
still to find death of Sarah or follow up his parents. there is a possible 1891 entry for a James White , prisoner Wandsworth but needs checking

 

[MollyMay]

21 Aug 1915 James White widr, to Ellen Wicks widow nee Buttle @ St James Bromley

Brilliant - thank you, the address on the m/c is the same as the 1921 census, and gives father as James White

1911 30 Entich St MEOT RD21, ED 09, Piece 1625. James Dock Lab. Sarah and 6 children

I checked this one out and James and Sarah can be found in 1901, so not my James White.

I tried to find Ellen Wicks in 1911 without any luck (I have her and her children in 1901).

 

[Andromeda]

Added to all of the above who is the Jane White, witness at the marriage of James to Sarah Cotton?

Tracing what I believe is James and family back through the census:

1851 - Perrywinkle Street, Stepney, H0107/1551/126/19
James White 28 (1823) Greengrocer b Stepney
Elizabeth 26 wife b Stepney
James 3 b Stepney
Hannah 1 daur b Ratcliff28

1861 - 29 North Street, Limehouse, Stepney, RG09/106/8/10
James White 38 Greengrocer b Limehouse
Elizabeth 37 wife b Limehouse
James 13 son Labourer at Galvanizing Works b Stepney
Hannah 11 daur b Stepney
Elizabeth 9 daur b Stepney
William 1 son b Stepney

1871 - Pedleys Orchard, Mile End Old Town, RG10/564/106/1
James White 48 Gardener b Stepney
Elizabeth 46 wife b Limehouse
James 23 son Carpenter b Stepney
William 11 son Butcher b Limehouse

Fast forward to William’s marriage on 10 Dec 1882 at St James the Great, Bethnal Green:
William White f/a Hawker. Father: James White, Hawker
Jane Smart 20 spinster. Father: Edward Smart, Engineer

1891 at 59 Duckett Street, Mile End Old Town (the address James gives at his 1893 marriage)
William White 30 General Dealer b Limehouse
Jane White 27 wife b St Georges

So Jane is James's sister-in-law. Her signature at her own marriage and then as the witness to James's marriage is hopefully attached!

 

[Andromeda]

I cannot find James and Ellen in 1891, nor a credible death for Ellen.

Tracing Ellen back through the census and her marriage to James, her parents were John Cole, a Coal Porter, and his wife Harriet, and she was born 1855 in Ratcliff (possibly registered in Stepney Q1 1855 as Elizabeth Ellen Cole?).

I couldn't find a death for her either, but there's this marriage at St Luke MEOT on 20 Feb 1889 that could be interesting:

John Frendenstein 30 widower Railway Porter 163 Canal Road. Father: Bernard Frendenstein, Shoe Maker
Ellen Foster 40 widow, same address. Father: John Cole, Cole Porter

In 1901 she is at 10 Taylors Place, Limehouse - RG13/321/41/20
Ellen Frendenstein 44 born Ratcliff
Fred Frendenstein 11 son b Limehouse

I believe that this is her death:
FRENDENSTEIN, ELIZABETH ELLEN aged 98 GRO Reference: 1953 J Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 05C Page 812

In 1939 she is in the Poplar Institute as Elizabeth Frendenstein born 26 Dec 1854.

Added / PS: I think the 1891 you have for James is the correct one

 

[Andromeda]

Cole Porter in the post above should of course be COAL porter!

 

[MollyMay]

Thank you so much @Andromeda - that is exactly the family I had consructed for James White (the post was long enough without adding that as well) but so good to have it independently verified. It really all hinged on whether the 1901 entry for James with his widowed father was correct.

I really should have thought of Jane being a SIL - I really should have

Not quite sure how you solved the Ellen White conundrum, but it certainly looks like the same lady, but I wonder where the name Foster came from. Obviously she and James White parted.

 

[MollyMay]

Well, Ellen Cole was a girl!

Having married James White in 1871, and baptised son James in 1872 - the family are together in 1881, and at some time after they part company

On the 1891 census I found her as Ellen Foster RG12/294/33/17 at 100 Eastfield Street*
Richard Foster b1844 coal porter
Ellen wife
Richard b1885
Frederick b1889
both boys birth reg with mmn Cole (Frederic William as Forster)
There is a likely death for Richard Foster in 1898 Sept qtr Poplar 1c 414 age 49
*on the same census page 2 entries down, but in Beard's Place are the Cotton family including Sarah!

1899 Ellen marries John Frendenstein as Ellen Foster Wid

1901 Census Ellen is living with son Fred no longer Foster but Frendenstein (no sign of John) a 10 Taylors PLace
Son Richard Foster is lodging with the Carter family at 4 Taylor's place

So thanks again to @Andromeda the mystery of Ellen Cole/White/Foster/Frendenstein is solved

 

[Andromeda]

I'm not entirely convinced that Ellen's parents are her biological parents though. The 1851-1871 consistently give Harriet's YoB a 1807-1809, and if Ellen was born December 1854, then that would make Harriet quite an old mother for the time, at around 46/47. And why change her name from Elizabeth Ellen to Ellen Pamela?

One of my lot registered their grandson as their own when they were a similar age, so I'm perhaps more suspicious than most!

 

[MollyMay]

One of my lot registered their grandson as their own when they were a similar age, so I'm perhaps more suspicious than most!

It happened an awful lot - my MIL had 2 'brothers' who were really nephews and when I was a child it was common knowledge that one of the neighbour's 2 youngest were her grandchildren, but no one would say a word to her about it.

Ellen is really only periferal to my tree, Sarah Cotton was my g.dad's sister so she too is a twig on a branch, but I had never, before sorted out just who her husband's family were.