Thomas Bates of Putney

S

Steven R

New Member
Thomas Bates was born on June 22nd, 1841 in Putney, Wandsworth. His father's name was Thomas (Gardener) and his mother's name was Catherine. By "trade" he was a gardeners assistant.

Thomas spent most of his adult life either in the Fulham Workhouse or the Wandsworth Gaol. He was even sent to a military prison at one point to try and straighten him out.

There is a Thomas James Bates who apparently died in one of the Epsom Asylums in Jan 1913. I'm trying to connect these two together!

John, Ellen, Catherine, Johanna, Edward (died at birth), and another younger brother named Edward were his siblings. I'm seeking any relations especially to Edward Bates.

This family was also Irish in descent and Roman Catholic, with ties to Kilkenney and Limerick. The "Bates" name in Ireland is "old English" from the 12C invasion of Ireland.

This family lived in Biggs Row, Putney. Thomas Bates married Ann Hughes (Irish from Ulster) in 1862. She died a terrible death in the Fulham WH in 1881.

Thomas's daughter Catherine gave birth to James Bates (no father) in April 1891 at Kensington Infirmary, but eventually left England and lived in Victoria BC, Canada under the alias "Katie." You wont find her in any UK or Canadian census records after 1913. She died in 1952 with "Born in Mexico" on her tombstone.

I am the Great Grandson of Catherine's son James.
 
Andromeda said:
I thought the name Thomas James Bates of Horton Asylum rang a bell - I helped Elma with him last year, and you also commented on that thread. https://genealogy-specialists.com/threads/thomas-bates-born-1840.14897/

The Thomas James Bates who died in the asylum was born in Lichfield, Staffordshire so isn't the Thomas Bates born in Putney
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Thank you. I paid someone in England to help me find the answer but she stopped doing the research because she couldn't find "my" Thomas Bates...."there are so many" she said. Thanks for writing the search continues.
 
Perhaps if you type out what you know to be fact we can run some new eyes over it.

Please give as much detail as possible, for instance his mother's maiden name, exactly where he is in the various census, full details from his marriage certificate, names and years of birth of his children etc

When and where is the last time you've identified him with absolute certainty?

If he was definitely in & out of the workhouse then there may be some more information within the many 'hidden' records on Ancestry that haven't been transcribed.
 
And to help us further, can you give us details of the facts you know about your great grandfather James in Canada as well as England ( such as information from his wedding certificate) and mother Catherine/Katie in Canada as well as in England. Are there any Canadian records when James and Katie are together? Do you have any immigration records? Thanks.
 
As a starter, this looks like him:

BATES, THOMAS mmn FARRARD GRO Reference: 1841 S Quarter in WANDSWORTH AND CLAPHAM UNION Volume 04 Page 476

There are RC baptisms for some of the other children giving Catherine’s mmn as Farrell, Farreh etc, but there seems to be a big gap between Catherine (1831) and Edward (1845)

1841 Census: Biggs Row South, Putney
Thomas Bates 45 b Ireland
Catherine 40 b Ireland
John 13 - not born in county
Ellen 12 – not born in county
Catherine 10 b Surrey
Johanna 7 b Surrey

1851 Census: No.1 Cox Buildings, Putney St Mary – HO107/1579/160/16
Thomas Bates 56 Labourer b Ireland
Catherine 52 wife b Ireland
Ellen Gleason Bates 22 daur b Ireland
Catherine 19 daur b Clapham, Surrey
Johanna 15 daur b Barnes, Surrrey
Edward 5 Son b Putney
Maryan Gleason (Bates written then crossed out) 2 Grandaur b Putney
Thomas Gleason 11m Grandson b Putney

1851 Census: Wandsworth & Clapham Union Workhouse – HO107/1577/368/21
Thomas Bates 9 b Putney, Surrey

1861 Census: 5 Georges Place, Putney – RG09/374/79/7
Thomas Bates 67 Ag Lab b Ireland, Woodrough?
Catherine 54 wife b Ireland Thomas Town
Thomas 20 son Ag Lab Putney, Surrey
Edward 16 son Ag Lab b Putney, Surrrey

Marriage 1862 Wandsworth Thomas Bates and (same page) Ann Hughes

ADDED:
1871 Census: 2 Smiths Cottages, Putney – RG10/716/5/4
Thomas BATE 29 Gardeners Labourer b Putney
Anne 36 wife b Putney
John 8 son b Putney
Catherine 6 b Putney
Ellen 4 b Putney
 
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There are also births/baptisms for Thomas Bates 1874 and James (Jacobus) Bates 1876, and I can see James in the Fulham Union Workhouse in 1881, aged 5.
 
Just looking at a few random records, There is an unindexed book entitled 'School Index' within the Ancestry record set London, England, Poor Law and Board of Guardian Records, 1738-1926 > Hammersmith & Fulham > Fulham > Miscellaneous > Fulham Palace Road Workhouse, 1870-1884. (image 10):

4 Dec 1879 Ellen Bates b 1867, sent from Fulham. RC. Nearest relative: Mother in the Workhouse. Discharged from school 10 Feb 1881
3 Jun 1880 James Bates b 1876, sent from Fulham. RC. Nearest relative: Mother in the Workhouse. Discharged from school 24 Mar 1881
18 Nov 1880 Catherine Bates b 1865, sent from Fulham. RC. Nearest relative: Mother in the Workhouse. Discharged from school 24 Mar 1881

Then there's an indexed record for James (I didn't look for the girls) in the Poor Law School District Registers showing his admission to Ashford School: James Bates b 1876 admitted 11 Aug 1881, discharged 23 Feb 1883. Dead.

@Steven R, you mentioned Thomas being in & out of the Fulham Workhouse, Wandsworth Gaol, and even a stint in military prison. When were these, where can we see the records, and how certain are you that they are all 'your' Thomas and not a different one?
 
Andromeda said:
Perhaps if you type out what you know to be fact we can run some new eyes over it.

Please give as much detail as possible, for instance his mother's maiden name, exactly where he is in the various census, full details from his marriage certificate, names and years of birth of his children etc

When and where is the last time you've identified him with absolute certainty?

If he was definitely in & out of the workhouse then there may be some more information within the many 'hidden' records on Ancestry that haven't been transcribed.
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Thank you. The Thomas Bates I'm looking for was born in June 1841 in Putney, Cox's Buildings. He had a younger brother named Edward (among other siblings). His wife's name was Ann Hughes from Ireland. She died tragically in 1881. They had many children, my GG Grandmother being Catherine Bates. Her son was James born April 4 1891.

Thomas spent most of his life in the Fulham Workhouse or bouts in the Wandsworth Gaol.
 
Steven R said:
Thank you. The Thomas Bates I'm looking for was born in June 1841 in Putney, Cox's Buildings. He had a younger brother named Edward (among other siblings). His wife's name was Ann Hughes from Ireland. She died tragically in 1881. They had many children, my GG Grandmother being Catherine Bates. Her son was James born April 4 1891.

Thomas spent most of his life in the Fulham Workhouse or bouts in the Wandsworth Gaol.
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Sorry but in order to try & help you we really need more specific information than that - is the various census and baptism information I've posted so far the correct man?

Also can you answer the following questions I asked:
Andromeda said:
....full details from his marriage certificate, names and years of birth of his children etc

When and where is the last time you've identified him with absolute certainty?
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Andromeda said:
@Steven R, you mentioned Thomas being in & out of the Fulham Workhouse, Wandsworth Gaol, and even a stint in military prison. When were these, where can we see the records, and how certain are you that they are all 'your' Thomas and not a different one?
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These facts may seem irrelevant to the search, but when we're trying to find someone then every scrap of information about them and their immediate family can potentially be a lead. For example, who registered Ann's death? Although she died in the workhouse, was a home address given? Was she described as wife or widow of Thomas?
 
Grizel said:
And to help us further, can you give us details of the facts you know about your great grandfather James in Canada as well as England ( such as information from his wedding certificate) and mother Catherine/Katie in Canada as well as in England. Are there any Canadian records when James and Katie are together? Do you have any immigration records? Thanks.
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Hello, thank you so much for responding. The Thomas Bates I'm seeking was born June 22nd, 1841 in Putney (no baptism). He married Ann Hughes on Jan 8, 1862 at Thomas A Becket Catholic Chapel in Wandsworth. She does in 1881 at the Fulham WH.

He had a younger brother named Edward Bates born in 1846. Ironically he had an older brother named Edward who died as a baby. I'm seeking any relations connected to him.

At age 9 he was in the Wandsworth and Chapham Union WH. Nov 12, 1864 Thomas Bates spent one month in the Wandsworth gaol. He was 5' 10", black hair, blue eyes.

In 1881 Thomas Bates shows up with the Royal Sussex Light Infantry Militia. Sadly that's where the trail goes cold.

His daughter Catherine Bates (b June 7, 1865 - no baptism) is nowhere to be found between the summer of 1904 and April 1913 when she came to Canada with Mrs. Joyce Party. She is nowhere to be found on any Canadian census records as I believe she took on the alias "Katie."

She never married. The apparent story is she was sexually assaulted when she employed as a domestic servant.

My Great Grandfather James was born in the Kensington Infirmary April 4, 1891. His mother sent him to St. Mary's Orphanage for Boys but by May 1904 he was sent to Ottawa to be a home boy for Irish farmer Joe Brophy. After that, it is my belief that he followed his mother to Victoria BC where he eventually stole money from his employer and ended up in the BC Penitentiary. After his stint there he went back to Ottawa and eventually signed up and went to war. He survived the Great War and came back in June 1919. The only "James Bates'" listed in the entire 1911 Canadian Census had him as an inmate at the said penitentiary. He married January 30, 1916 at St. Patrick's Church Ottawa.
 
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