Unmuddying the water ... If only

Archie's Mum said:
... if no-one is sure of how John Davis got here, and who he really is, how do they know that he was convicted at Middlesex?
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My point exactly! They might be right for all I know but it's not looking good so far - however most of the John DAVISs who were in VDL WERE tried in Middlesex but how they arrived at their conclusion is completely lost to me. I don't even know if their research has used one of the conduct reports (and Tasmania states that their site names all the convicts sent but many of the executed men who WERE convicts don't appear so this is clearly wrong and misleading.) There are no references so nobody can check it! Have they made a mistake and linked the wrong person to a record or is there some other reference that is missing? And if so what is it?

I can't match this online information with what I'm finding as nothing seems to fit. That might be because they can only use a process of elimination but what was it? (Hence my post.) I accept that it is tricky but without being able to see the records that they have used, I can't be sure that there is no error.

I am working on the men who have not been eliminated and will post their trial details and ages asap. Just so nobody also spends time on it.

(Rant over!)

Jane

PS. I'm an amateur ... but they make are good researchers!
 
Also, if he came all the way on the Pilot, it actually sailed from Cork and I assume would have been loaded with Irish convicts!
 
Archie's Mum said:
Also, if he came all the way on the Pilot, it actually sailed from Cork and I assume would have been loaded with Irish convicts!
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Another precisely! ... but I couldn't find him on the Cork Indent even if online trees had said he was Irish. I don't think he came on any voyage of the Pilot at all.

I'm honestly not sure he even HAS a conduct report. In fact I've been leaning that way since I started to look for convict conduct reports for all the men who were executed during the 1820s! I suspect that many are missing or were never compiled as they were free or close to becoming free.

Jane
 
Pilot.
Master William Pexton.
Orig. London 9/3/1817 via Cork, Rio de Janeiro. Sydney arrived 29/7/1817.
Cargo: merchandise.
120 male convicts
46th Regiment.
There may have been some English convicts.
One convict Thomas Cruise was on board, but arrived in Tasmania on the Elizabeth Henrietta, but can't find any more on that ship. So far.
The vacuum cleaner calls.
 
Confirmation that the unattributed conduct report (CON31/1/9 - image 18) for John DAVIES per "Pilot" to VDL is that of the man per "Sir William Bensley" 1817 to NSW appears below. John WAS sent to Newcastle about five months after the felony on 30 December 1818. He stole clothing from Mr WADDLE. References below are taken from the online list of the Colonial Secretary's Index provided by SRNSW. Originals may be viewed on An****** in the Colonial Secretary's Correspondence.

DAVIS, John. Per "Sir William Bensley", 1817
1819 Jun 23 - From Van Diemen's Land. On list of prisoners to be sent to Newcastle per "Elizabeth Henrietta" (Reel 6006; 4/3500 p.156)
1823 Mar - On monthly return of prisoners punished at Newcastle (Reel 6023; 4/1718 pp.165-6)


This man as indicated in post #4 also appears in Newcastle on 1825M.
Nothing further appears on this conduct report because he seems to have remained in NSW. Not only does this eliminate the John DAVIS from the Sir William Beasley but it also eliminates that conduct report for the man per the Pilot which to this date is not linked to anyone.

Jane

 
The man I identified on Norfolk Island in 1811 (number 2 in post #4) has been found in NSW in 1816 so he almost certainly didn't ever come to VDL. No evidence that any of the men per the Earl Cornwallis appears in VDL.

John's age is uncertain. He said that he was 35 when he married (b.1787) but four years later when he died he was reported to be nearly fifty. Assuming that this was a typo and it should have said "nearly forty," which would match his birth date, then he was born in about 1787. If John had deliberately lied when he married and he was older, it may be that a birth date somewhere during the 1780s would be more appropriate.

The Colonial Secretary's records indicate that there was yet ANOTHER man named John DAVIS in VDL. SRNSW states that the convict per the "Anne" who had a life sentence, and had probably been tried in Dorchester, appeared as a bushranger on a "List of prisoners under conviction by the Court of Criminal Jurisdiction ... and who on account of their dangerous knowledge of this Island or their mischievious connections are sent to Port Jackson." This is probably the following man who on 14 May 1814, had absconded from lawful employment in Van Diemen's Land. A Proclamation requiring surrender of before 1 Dec or he would be deemed an outlaw & dealt with accordingly (Reel 6038; SZ1044 pp.214-7) Because he returned to NSW and has been found on musters there, he can't be the man but how many unrecorded convicts named John DAVIS were in VDL by 1822?

There are three men who are shown in the Tasmanian convict lists who came to VDL. They have no conduct reports available. Indents don't show any ages. I have found no trace of any of these men in VDL.
1. John DAVIS - Life per Indefatigable in 1812 – his conduct report hasn’t been found. According to the Indefatigable indent this John DAVIS came straight to VDL and didn't go to NSW first. Unless he received a pardon he would not have been free to marry in 1822.
2. eliminated - (see above)
3. John DAVIS 7 years per Calcutta 1803 (to Port Phillip aka Melbourne) – conduct report not available online. No trace found. Unless this man was transported as a teenager he would not fit the age range of being between 35 and 45 in 1822.
4. John DAVIS alias William Trim - Life per Calcutta 1803 (to Port Phillip aka Melbourne) – conduct report not available online. No trace found but unless he received a pardon he would not have been free to marry in 1822. Unless this man was transported as a teenager he would not fit the age range of being between 35 and 45 in 1822.

I have solved it! I know who he was. Please check my research in the next post. I don't think that there is any doubt but I might be just keyed up!

Jane
 
Can it be this easy after all these years or did I just need to persist?

I'm interested in finding more about the man from the Indefatigable.
I have found the conduct report that is linked to the man who arrived on this ship! It is located - according to the link - at CON31/1/9 p.74 and it is actually on Image 81 in the middle of the men who arrived in 1819 and 1820. I had never gone this far through the record as the Indefatigable had arrived in 1812. There is no ship recorded and no trial details on the record.
It says only one thing.

"Conditional Pardon 25 Jany 1819":)

The Indefatigable Indent to VDL (at CON31/1/1) shows that he was tried in London and sentenced on 4 Dec 1811 and was transported for Life.
An****** criminal registers show that he was born in 1785.
I'm currently looking for a description on CON23/1/1.

Jane (Who needs someone to check all this or at least see if you can find the records - please.)
 
Congratulations, I hope you have found your man.
While you were posting the above I came across the story of John Davis via "Convict Narratives" by (can I mention his name).
He was a Jewish shopman and was transported on the Elizabeth to NSW where he was again sentenced and transferred to Port Macquarie where he absconded. When caught he was sent to Macquarie Harbour. After 24 days he absconded again with 6 others and presumed "perished in the woods" (Note in the conduct book "struck off dec 1853"). He then apparently appeared again in Campbelltown as a bushranger 17 years later. Was it him? A mystery and a jolly good yarn.
 
Archie's Mum said:
he was sent to Macquarie Harbour. After 24 days he absconded again with 6 others and presumed "perished in the woods" (Note in the conduct book "struck off dec 1853"). He then apparently appeared again in Campbelltown as a bushranger 17 years later. Was it him? A mystery and a jolly good yarn.
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I hope he wasn't lost in the woods with Alexander Pearce. I wonder whether anything was written on the men who disappeared whilst with him?!:eek:
(Alexander Pearce is truly gruesome but compelling story which has been filmed. Google him.)

Jane

PS Can't find John DAVIS in the description books at 23/1/1 but I do suspect that I have found him.
 
spison said:
I hope he wasn't lost in the woods with Alexander Pearce. I wonder whether anything was written on the men who disappeared whilst with him?!:eek:
(Alexander Pearce is truly gruesome but compelling story which has been filmed. Google him.)

Jane

PS Can't find John DAVIS in the description books at 23/1/1 but I do suspect that I have found him.
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I would think that if he was lost in the scrub with Alexander Pearce the only way he would have come out of the scrub would have been in the sack!
I thought about that "incident" while reading the story on John Davis, but couldn't remember the name.
I too tried the description book but my eyes wouldn't focus.
 
In getting back to Mary Brown, in your #2 post it states that Mary Brown was admitted to the Female Factory. Do you know which one, as I had read somewhere and I'll stand corrected, that the first factory was not operational until 1823. Wasn't she free by then?
 
Archie's Mum said:
In getting back to Mary Brown, in your #2 post it states that Mary Brown was admitted to the Female Factory. Do you know which one, as I had read somewhere and I'll stand corrected, that the first factory was not operational until 1823. Wasn't she free by then?
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This is where I haven't seen original records and I suspect is where the ship confusion for Mary originates. I think she was put in the Factory but I don't know whether it was for protection or whether it was as a punishment.The online indexes on the Linc site or the Female Convicts research group has a Mary Davis per the Kangaroo dying in the Factory - Cascades I think. Newspapers are adamant that Mary didn't spend much time in the factory but she and the four children were sent there to "await a kind benefactor" whether husband was arrested. I'm suspicious that because the slaughtered sheep were buried under her bedroom floor that the felony on her conduct report on 16 Jan 1826 was for assisting in the theft but I have no real idea as all I have seen are the newspaper reports and not any original documents (if any exist). None of the online trees have the same date of death as me and yet I think that I am right that she died in January 1827 and not September 1826. There was no funeral or death notice for her in Tasmanian CDs under either name in either year. The report that a third inquest was undertaken makes me wonder if she was buried at all and whether her body was simply used for medical whatever. It wouldn't be the first time. The online links (forget which site) show the children entering the Queen's orphan school at various times.

Jane
 
Thanks for the above. I am getting heaps of practice with convict history at the moment. I sorted my Tassy ones out some time ago but they weren't quite so complicated as yours. It's the NSW ones that are proving more difficult.
It seems that you are well on the way to solving your mystery and the September date on the indent sounds as if it is related. To me anyway!
 
Thanks Archie's Mum. Me too. Lets hope it makes more sense than the variety of ships of arrival on the trees for this family.

Jane
 
spison said:
This is where I haven't seen original records and I suspect is where the ship confusion for Mary originates. I think she was put in the Factory but I don't know whether it was for protection or whether it was as a punishment.The online indexes on the Linc site or the Female Convicts research group has a Mary Davis per the Kangaroo dying in the Factory - Cascades I think. Newspapers are adamant that Mary didn't spend much time in the factory but she and the four children were sent there to "await a kind benefactor" whether husband was arrested. I'm suspicious that because the slaughtered sheep were buried under her bedroom floor that the felony on her conduct report on 16 Jan 1826 was for assisting in the theft but I have no real idea as all I have seen are the newspaper reports and not any original documents (if any exist). None of the online trees have the same date of death as me and yet I think that I am right that she died in January 1827 and not September 1826. There was no funeral or death notice for her in Tasmanian CDs under either name in either year. The report that a third inquest was undertaken makes me wonder if she was buried at all and whether her body was simply used for medical whatever. It wouldn't be the first time. The online links (forget which site) show the children entering the Queen's orphan school at various times.

Jane
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Hi Jane,

This is the first forum I have joined, so please bear with me while I try to work it all out.
I discovered your thread through a google search while trying to find out more on my sister in law's ancestors - Ann Brown & John Davis -> Ann Davis.
Well done on all the research you have done!!
I did a little some time back, finding John's conviction & death sentence in the newspaper etc but so much of it is, as you say is "muddy". I started looking again because I'm taking a trip to Hobart at the end of the month and planning to do some digging while I'm there. Rather than starting from scratch and redoing much of what you seem to have already done, would you give me some direction as to what you don't have or areas that I can access in Tasmania that you can't on line?
I'll now go back and start to write up all the information you have provided here - really appreciate your sharing it.

Janine
 
Hello Janine,

Bless those little spiders/robots! Welcome to the forum. I know it's new but it's cosy and friendly and has a very nice 'feel'.

It's good to have another person wandering in the wilderness with these two and not prepared to accept what is online.

How is your sister-in-law connected to this totally confusing pair - through Ann's marriage to Mark STOCKS or through the marriage to George SOMERS? How I wish I could meet you in Hobart and we could attack this pair together! If I was in Tassie I'd meet you there. I feel that what we have managed to document here is correct for Mary and probably correct for John. It's just that as far as I can see no other descendant has checked anything but has just accepted what they have been told. I wish we had some references to help us. They don't have to be the actual record just where it came from!

It's difficult to know where to start and whether you would want to work on confirming identifications (if it is possible) or collecting stuff relevant to Ann SOMERS formerly STOCKS nee DAVIS. I know that there once was an alphabetical card catalogue which might be worth looking at if it still exists and photographing anything relevant to Mary BROWN and John DAVIS. I'm sure that the staff will help if you're there. I think I'd be asking them to help untangle all the conflicting records. I certainly would like to know whether the unlinked online records link as this thread suggests they do. I also wonder whether Tasmanian archivists are aware that the links are missing! How do they know that the conduct report for John Davis that only shows a record of a conditional pardon is the record for the man on the Indefatigable? There MUST be some other record of his pardon and if there is what else does it say? Where is that? I'd also like to know how John got the property five miles from the scene of the crime. Was he squatting? Was it a grant? Was he a tenant farmer? Just what was he!?

As to Ann I'd be looking for copies of the original records of the admissions to the orphan school for her and her siblings that are in the online indexes. Which factory was Mary sent to and are the records still in existence? It would have either been Hobart or Cascades surely! (At this point I'd visit what is left of Cascades too.) There are references in online trees to a children's census and I know nothing about that. What does it say? Have you downloaded Robert EVAN's will? If not, it is there but a shocker to transcribe.

I'll think some more. I will send you a PM with my email address.

Jane
 
Some more thoughts ...
Is there a coroners' report on Mary still existing? There were supposedly three done!
What exists of Ann's fight to receive what was due to her after EVAN's death. She didn't get her inheritance but are there some remaining legal bits and bots?
If you're descended from the SOMERS association (as my husband was) who was George? I note that online trees are stating (confidently I might add) that he was transported as George SUMMERS but when I looked at this man's conduct report I found what was written there hard to gel with the man who was known to be a trusted storekeeper. It just didn't ring true but I haven't done anything more apart from look at this and think OMG it's just too hard at this point! (Nobody else seems to have done this either I note.) Ignore this if you're a STOCKS descendant.

These are just suggestions and once you're there you probably know how many tangents or leads may be there to follow - especially if you're the first person tracking the Indefatigable man! Don't feel any obligation to do any of them as I'm sure you'll come up with ideas of your own!

Jane
 
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