Matthew & Mary Ruff birth 1866 1865

Just had a quick check -
Jeremiah Ruff's birth was registered March qtr 1867 Church Stretton 6a591 mmn Evans
Matthew's birth was registered June qtr Church Stretton 6a542 mmn Evans
So definitely brothers
They are together with their parents (Matthew and Jane) in 1871 RG10/2624/65/13
By 1881 Jeremiah is working as a servant RG11/2624/65/13
In 1887 he witnesses Matthew's marriage.
Nothing found after that.

Matthew also has a sister Mary Ann (her birth Registered in Knighton in 1863 - Matthew Ruff senior claims born in Radnor)

It is quite possibe that the marriage witnesses are Matthew's brother and sister, and not Jeremiah and a wife :rolleyes:

I am out this morning, so will have to come back to this later on.
 
MollyMay said:
Matthew had a brother Jeremiah, who witnessed the marriage to Mary Roberts, the other being a Mary Ann Ruff - perhaps we need to look into him further?
Other than in one census with his parents I don't think I found him again apart from being the witness:confused:
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It’s driving me mad my grandad never really spoke of his mum .. oh how I wished I’d asked questions when he was alive. Every trail that looks hot, all of a sudden gets thrown off track .. a few avenues but no where leading to the home goal . Come on Mary
 
MollyMay said:
Matthew had a brother Jeremiah, who witnessed the marriage to Mary Roberts, the other being a Mary Ann Ruff - perhaps we need to look into him further?
Other than in one census with his parents I don't think I found him again apart from being the witness:confused:
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Mary’s son Alfred ( my grandad ) told me she was born Oswestry .. lived at castle pulverbatch Shropshire with Matthew ruff.. she also lived in anscroft.. she’s buried with Matthew in Dorrington cemetery Shropshire near Shrewsbury. She had 14 children, a few died early I believe . She raised Victor ruff her grandson ..
 
MollyMay said:
I did find one other baptism for a Mary Ann Roberts baptised 22/6/1866 born 25/2/1866 in Chirk Denbighshire.
I discounted it but on looking at a map it is not that far from Oswestry, and is covered by the Oswestry reg. district.
This Mary Ann is the daughter of single woman Ann Roberts
For some reason the birth reg does not show on the GRO list but both FreeBMD and FMP have it
March qtr 1866 Oswestry 6a 729 with no mmn entered (correct)

Needless to say I cannot find this Mary Ann in 1871, of course if her mother married then she might be enumerated with a different surname.
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Mary Ruff .. The invisible lady.
 

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I do not know about others but this thread had become rather long and muddled, so I thought I would try and put in a synopsis of what we have so far -

I will start with the marriage. We know from the m/c that Matthew Ruff (age 21) married Mary Roberts (age 20) a spinster at Woolaston on 22/3/1887.

Mary gives her father's name as Robert Roberts a labourer. Her abode was Church Stretton and occupation servant.
The 2 witnesses were Jeremiah Ruff, and Mary Ann Ruff - all signed (possibly brother and sister of Matthew).
I will leave anything on the Ruff family for now, perhaps do a separate post for them, but it is Mary that we need to find.

Going forward, which I think Lorraine knows and is happy it is all correct.

In 1891 Mary and Matthew with 2 daughters are living at Atcham (RG12/2103/75/9) Mary gives her pob as Stokesay
In 1901 Mary and Matthew now with 5 children living at Atcham (RG13/2533/51/13) Mary gives her pob as Oswestry
In 1911 Mary and Matthew with 7 children plus married daughter and her husband living in Pulverbatch (RG14 PN16049 SN34) Mary gives her pob as Llanymynech
In 1921 Mary and Matthew still in Pulverbatch with 3 children + Victor the son/grandson Mary gives her pob as Shrewsbury
1939 in Atcham Mary and Matthew with Victor and an Ernest Jones (g.son?) Mary gives a dob as 10/2/1866
1942 Matthew dies and probate to Mary Ann Ruff widow
1957 Mary dies and her probate says Mary Ann otherwise Mary

So who is Mary?

1881 census for Mary (with or without a middle name) Roberts b1866+/- 2 years within a 5 mile radius of Oswestry
FMP gives me 10 results

RG11/2658/85/12 Market Street Oswestry Mary Roberts age 16 (b1865) servant born Trefonen[?] Shropshire
RG11/2659/7/6 Albert Road Oswestry Mary Roberts age 16 (b1865) servant born St Martin's Oswestry - we have researched this Mary Roberts (d/o Robert the tailor and wife Maria) and have eliminated her as her baptism give a dob as 19/5/1865
RG11/2660/64/13 Oak Cottage St Martin's Mary Roberts age 15 (b1866) servant born Oswestry
RG11/2658/18/11 Upper Church Street Mary A age 14 (b1867) servant born Maesbury
RG11/2659/59/10 Salop Road Mary Ann Roberts* age 16 (b1865) a scholar (it appears to be a school) born Penybontfawr Montgomeryshire
RG11/2656/26/6 Llansilin Denbighshire Mary Roberts age 17 (b1864) servant born Llangollen
RG11/2656/57/4 Llansilin Denbighshire Mary Roberts* age 13 (b1868) a scholar living with her grandparents
Of he other three entries for 1881, one is Louisa M, so not our lady, and the other 2 are Mary E, again I think we can discount those 2 - please correct me if you think we should. * I also think we can eliminate these 2 as well. Which leaves 4 possibles all servants.

We also eliminated the family Janet found in 1871 - Benjamin and Mary [Humphreys] as they emigrated to Canada before 1881

We also have the Mary Ann Roberts the d/o of single Ann Roberts baptised in Chirk with a dob of 22/2/1886 - we think this is the Mary with the Williams family in 1871 as Mary A granddaughter age 5 (b1866 Chirk) - mother Ann had died, which AM has been researching, but she is not with the Williams family in 1881, so could be one of the 4 above.

I hope this helps clarify things a little.
 
MollyMay said:
I do not know about others but this thread had become rather long and muddled, so I thought I would try and put in a synopsis of what we have so far -

I will start with the marriage. We know from the m/c that Matthew Ruff (age 21) married Mary Roberts (age 20) a spinster at Woolaston on 22/3/1887.

Mary gives her father's name as Robert Roberts a labourer. Her abode was Church Stretton and occupation servant.
The 2 witnesses were Jeremiah Ruff, and Mary Ann Ruff - all signed (possibly brother and sister of Matthew).
I will leave anything on the Ruff family for now, perhaps do a separate post for them, but it is Mary that we need to find.

Going forward, which I think Lorraine knows and is happy it is all correct.

In 1891 Mary and Matthew with 2 daughters are living at Atcham (RG12/2103/75/9) Mary gives her pob as Stokesay
In 1901 Mary and Matthew now with 5 children living at Atcham (RG13/2533/51/13) Mary gives her pob as Oswestry
In 1911 Mary and Matthew with 7 children plus married daughter and her husband living in Pulverbatch (RG14 PN16049 SN34) Mary gives her pob as Llanymynech
In 1921 Mary and Matthew still in Pulverbatch with 3 children + Victor the son/grandson Mary gives her pob as Shrewsbury
1939 in Atcham Mary and Matthew with Victor and an Ernest Jones (g.son?) Mary gives a dob as 10/2/1866
1942 Matthew dies and probate to Mary Ann Ruff widow
1957 Mary dies and her probate says Mary Ann otherwise Mary

So who is Mary?

1881 census for Mary (with or without a middle name) Roberts b1866+/- 2 years within a 5 mile radius of Oswestry
FMP gives me 10 results

RG11/2658/85/12 Market Street Oswestry Mary Roberts age 16 (b1865) servant born Trefonen[?] Shropshire
RG11/2659/7/6 Albert Road Oswestry Mary Roberts age 16 (b1865) servant born St Martin's Oswestry - we have researched this Mary Roberts (d/o Robert the tailor and wife Maria) and have eliminated her as her baptism give a dob as 19/5/1865
RG11/2660/64/13 Oak Cottage St Martin's Mary Roberts age 15 (b1866) servant born Oswestry
RG11/2658/18/11 Upper Church Street Mary A age 14 (b1867) servant born Maesbury
RG11/2659/59/10 Salop Road Mary Ann Roberts* age 16 (b1865) a scholar (it appears to be a school) born Penybontfawr Montgomeryshire
RG11/2656/26/6 Llansilin Denbighshire Mary Roberts age 17 (b1864) servant born Llangollen
RG11/2656/57/4 Llansilin Denbighshire Mary Roberts* age 13 (b1868) a scholar living with her grandparents
Of he other three entries for 1881, one is Louisa M, so not our lady, and the other 2 are Mary E, again I think we can discount those 2 - please correct me if you think we should. * I also think we can eliminate these 2 as well. Which leaves 4 possibles all servants.

We also eliminated the family Janet found in 1871 - Benjamin and Mary [Humphreys] as they emigrated to Canada before 1881

We also have the Mary Ann Roberts the d/o of single Ann Roberts baptised in Chirk with a dob of 22/2/1886 - we think this is the Mary with the Williams family in 1871 as Mary A granddaughter age 5 (b1866 Chirk) - mother Ann had died, which AM has been researching, but she is not with the Williams family in 1881, so could be one of the 4 above.

I hope this helps clarify things a little.
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Thank you so very much Molly, I’m saving all this info so I can read it better, as looking at it on my mobile.
This is amazing up to date info .,
It’s so so confusing I’m trying to work out which one she was, I know Mary’s daughter Alice was a servant in Atcham . So I would say Mary probably did the same .. because of probate records I’d say she was a Mary Ann.. but wish she wasn’t as it muddles everything for me
We can eliminate the family that emigrated .
Grandad sad she was born Oswestry so that gives an area ..

I’m drawn to this one :
RG11/2660/64/13 Oak Cottage St Martin's Mary Roberts age 15 (b1866) servant born Oswestry.. due to the census’ stating her birth 1866, with Victor and Matthew, so I know that record is her..
I feel you’re pinning this lady down ! Incredible ❤️❤️ thank uou . ⭐️
 
Lorraine333 said:
Thank you so very much Molly, I’m saving all this info so I can read it better, as looking at it on my mobile.
This is amazing up to date info .,
It’s so so confusing I’m trying to work out which one she was, I know Mary’s daughter Alice was a servant in Atcham . So I would say Mary probably did the same .. because of probate records I’d say she was a Mary Ann.. but wish she wasn’t as it muddles everything for me
We can eliminate the family that emigrated .
Grandad sad she was born Oswestry so that gives an area ..

I’m drawn to this one :
RG11/2660/64/13 Oak Cottage St Martin's Mary Roberts age 15 (b1866) servant born Oswestry.. due to the census’ stating her birth 1866, with Victor and Matthew, so I know that record is her..
I feel you’re pinning this lady down ! Incredible ❤️❤️ thank uou . ⭐️
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You’re right Mary is 1865 and Matthew 1866, they’ve made a mistake on one census
 
Lorraine333 said:
Thank you so very much Molly, I’m saving all this info so I can read it better, as looking at it on my mobile.
This is amazing up to date info .,
It’s so so confusing I’m trying to work out which one she was, I know Mary’s daughter Alice was a servant in Atcham . So I would say Mary probably did the same .. because of probate records I’d say she was a Mary Ann.. but wish she wasn’t as it muddles everything for me
We can eliminate the family that emigrated .
Grandad sad she was born Oswestry so that gives an area ..

I’m drawn to this one :
RG11/2660/64/13 Oak Cottage St Martin's Mary Roberts age 15 (b1866) servant born Oswestry.. due to the census’ stating her birth 1866, with Victor and Matthew, so I know that record is her..
I feel you’re pinning this lady down ! Incredible ❤️❤️ thank uou . ⭐️
Click to expand...
Ernest jones was a vehicle driver, probably passing through as no relation.
 
Daft Bat said:
Excellent summary @MollyMay :)
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Totally agree, I’ve been following this thread and must admit to having got a bit confused, so thanks Sue for the excellent timeline. I have been trying to find something (anything) in the papers but the only thing I’ve come up with is the fact that Matthew Ruff won a lot of prizes at at various shows for his fruit and vegetables :rolleyes:
 
AnnB said:
Totally agree, I’ve been following this thread and must admit to having got a bit confused, so thanks Sue for the excellent timeline. I have been trying to find something (anything) in the papers but the only thing I’ve come up with is the fact that Matthew Ruff won a lot of prizes at at various shows for his fruit and vegetables :rolleyes:
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Awww bless him, I’d love to see those, my grandad and dad loved growing vegetables too
 
I have now looked at the 1871 census for Mary Roberts, same parameters as 1881

RG10/2778/48/16 Duck Lane Edgerley Mary age 7 (b1864) born Llanyblodwell d/o David and Mary - she is not with the family in 1881
RG10/2780/61/13 Oswestry House of Industry Mary age 7 (b1864) born Oswestry pauper a scholar
RG10/2783/37/13 - Mary d/o Robert and Maria which we already have eliminated
RG10/2780/47/11 Crickheath Mary age 5 (b1866) born Llanymynech d/o Thomas and Margaret - she is not with the family in 1881
RG10/2778/58/8 LLwyntidman Mary age 3 (b1868) born Llanymynech niece to the head of the household William Roberts. Also present is his single brother and sister, but whether Mary and 3 siblings are children of the sister is not shown - I cannot find any of them in 1881
RG10/2656/57/5 Rhiwlasisfoel Oswestry Mary age 3 (b1868) born Llansilin Denbighshire with grandparents - she is with them in 1881
RG10/2784/36/18 Chirk Mary Ann Roberts age 5 (1866) born Chirk Grandaughter of Johannah Williams (AM's research)
RG10/2780/23/16 Maesbury Mary A age 4 (b1867) d/o Edward and Margaret - there is a 14 year old servant born Maesbury in 1881 so likely this Mary
RG10/2784/50/15 Mary Ann age 6 (b1865) born Chirk, living with parents Francis and Ellen. This family are living in Corwen Denbighshire in 1881 (RG11/5540/108/8), Mary Ann is with them, a scholar)
 
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MollyMay said:
I have now looked at the 1871 census for Mary Roberts, same parameters as 1881

RG10/2778/48/16 Duck Lane Edgerley Mary age 7 (b1864) born Llanyblodwell d/o David and Mary - she is not with the family in 1881
RG10/2780/61/13 Oswestry House of Industry Mary age 7 (b1864) born Oswestry pauper a scholar
RG10/2783/37/13 - Mary d/o Robert and Maria which we already have eliminated
RG10/2780/47/11 Crickheath Mary age 5 (b1866) born Llanymynech d/o Thomas and Margaret - she is not with the family in 1881
RG10/2778/58/8 LLwyntidman Mary age 3 (b1868) born Llanymynech niece to the head of the household William Roberts. Also present is his single brother and sister, but whether Mary and 3 siblings are children of the sister is not shown - I cannot find any of them in 1881
RG10/2656/57/5 Rhiwlasisfoel Oswestry Mary age 3 (b1868) born Llansilin Denbighshire with grandparents - she is with them in 1881
RG10/2784/36/18 Chirk Mary Ann Roberts age 5 (1866) born Chirk Grandaughter of Johannah Williams (AM's research)
RG10/2780/23/16 Maesbury Mary A age 4 (b1867) d/o Edward and Margaret - there is a 14 year old servant born Maesbury in 1881 so likely this Mary
RG10/2784/50/15 Mary Ann age 6 (b1865) born Chirk, living with parents Francis and Ellen. This family are living in Corwen Denbighshire in 1881 (RG11/5540/108/8), Mary Ann is with them, a scholar)
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I’m wondering if she was homeless and lived in with employers / uncle. I wish I could work out which Mary she was.. your research and everyone’s is absolutely phenomenal ! True professionals . ❤️
 
MollyMay said:
Just had a quick check -
Jeremiah Ruff's birth was registered March qtr 1867 Church Stretton 6a591 mmn Evans
Matthew's birth was registered June qtr Church Stretton 6a542 mmn Evans
So definitely brothers
They are together with their parents (Matthew and Jane) in 1871 RG10/2624/65/13
By 1881 Jeremiah is working as a servant RG11/2624/65/13
In 1887 he witnesses Matthew's marriage.
Nothing found after that.

Matthew also has a sister Mary Ann (her birth Registered in Knighton in 1863 - Matthew Ruff senior claims born in Radnor)

It is quite possibe that the marriage witnesses are Matthew's brother and sister, and not Jeremiah and a wife :rolleyes:

I am out this morning, so will have to come back to this later on.
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I’ve found this on Ancestry Jeremiah being a brother to Matthew, I can’t get hold of marriage certificate so don’t know the witnesses . I’ve found Matthew’s Mary Ann too. Church Stretton is spot on too and Matthew’s parents in Radnor .
Mary is a mystical phenomena ..
 
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