Translation from Russian
- Thread starter CaroleF
- Start date
Indeed! I have done a *lot* of online searching on this guy. Given his unusual name and the rather public nature of some aspects of his life it hasn't really been too hard. (He was a member of my husband's wider family.) I now know a great deal about him - his family background (Regular Army), his WW1 service, his marriage in Constantinople - and remarriage in Birmingham, emigration to Australia, service with the Australian govt. in Papua, divorce from Thaissa - and her later death in a mental hospital, Barter's later remarriage and what happened to his two legitmate sons in WW2.A name like "Barter William Faithorn" just invited Googling
There's quite a lot on the internet about him and his wife Thaissa and their divorce...
I have also made contact with a lovely lady in Australia who also has Barter and Thaissa in her wider family tree. She is as intrigued as I am and was ahead of me in her research initially. What we are left with are some 'gaps' in the story to which we would just *love* to know the answers.
One of the gaps relates to exactly *who* Thaissa's father was and that's why I posted asking if anyone could transcribe the Marriage Certificate from Constantinople to see if it might provide an answer.
Thanks for your interest. It's a riveting story - and I shall write it all up one day.
Just to say - I do know who Thaissa said her father was (ie his name - Viktor Sokhoira-Yakhontoff), but I wonder if she might have been exaggerating his Army rank (Major General). If the Russian language marriage certificate genuinely has a member of the Russian aristocracy as one of the witnesses (as stated in the English transcription I posted earlier) I shall be more inclined to believe her and it might make it possible to find out more about her birth family.
I think I'm right in saying that Allied Forces (British and French) were in control of the Dardenelles at this time after WW1, Derek. Russians (whatever their political leanings) were not 'in control' of anything there. Constantinople was, however, full of White Russian emigrés in 1920 and I can only assume that the Russian consulate there was supportive of them - and the old Tsarist régime - since post #16 points out the document has the Imperial Eagle stamp.
Sis
Rootles out resources!
If you go to the link below there are a number of contacts details, including links to "Russian speaking community associations in Great Britain". Who knows someone might like to help you out. Just a thought.
http://www.
rusemb.org.uk/orgnationals/
http://www.
rusemb.org.uk/orgnationals/
Philippa
Always a lady.
What a shame I'm not still working, Carole. I worked with a delightful Russian mathematician who was only too willing to translate something Bill was given by one of the Russian cosmonauts a lifetime ago. He did say "any time" but it's been 20 years now since I retired and I imagine he has too by now!! Needless to say after so long away from the "coalface" I've lost touch with most of the people I worked with so now have no access at all.
Waffling on here has created a lightbulb moment for me. Are you close to a university? They usually have a wealth of international visitors and in many departments, so maybe there's a Russian in temporary residence who would be willing to help?
Just a thought!!
Waffling on here has created a lightbulb moment for me. Are you close to a university? They usually have a wealth of international visitors and in many departments, so maybe there's a Russian in temporary residence who would be willing to help?
Just a thought!!
Archie's Mum
Always digging up clues
Is there a Russian Orthodox Church anywhere close by?
Me too! Used to work with a fluent Russian speaker. Retired 13 years ago and have been unable to contact him.
Waffling on here has created a lightbulb moment for me. Are you close to a university? ....... Just a thought!!
Good thinking! I have a friend whose husband has contacts at the nearest university and I know they have Russian Dept.. I was holding that idea 'in reserve' so to speak, but failing other lines of enquiry will follow it up.
Many thanks for the suggestion .... and Yes there is! I'd quite forgotten about that. Have just searched and furthermore I find that the person who founded this church is actually someone I knew slightly many moons ago. There are contact details for him on their web site too - so watch this space!
Do please contact someone who knows more Russian than I do, but now I've compared it with the translation, there are a few things I'd add:
Written downwards on the left, I make the date 30 August 1920. (I know the Russians changed their calendar at some point around then, so maybe 12 September takes account of this.)
For the groom and first witness, the description is "English Lieutenant" (word order reversed in Russian), then another word. I think it's connected with serving in the military, but instead of "Serving" I wonder if it might mean "Acting".
The first witness's surname looks to me like Rettino, or perhaps Rettin with a suffix.
The second witness seems to have the patronymic Sergievitz - ie his father was called Sergei. There is indeed a word referring to his rank ("Dvoryanin"), but according to Wikipedia this is a fairly general term for nobleman.
I think that's all I can do - quite a challenge to the old grey matter, but not in a bad way
Written downwards on the left, I make the date 30 August 1920. (I know the Russians changed their calendar at some point around then, so maybe 12 September takes account of this.)
For the groom and first witness, the description is "English Lieutenant" (word order reversed in Russian), then another word. I think it's connected with serving in the military, but instead of "Serving" I wonder if it might mean "Acting".
The first witness's surname looks to me like Rettino, or perhaps Rettin with a suffix.
The second witness seems to have the patronymic Sergievitz - ie his father was called Sergei. There is indeed a word referring to his rank ("Dvoryanin"), but according to Wikipedia this is a fairly general term for nobleman.
I think that's all I can do - quite a challenge to the old grey matter, but not in a bad way
I'll check up on this, Arthur, but thank you for the observation.
It could well mean 'Acting'. I know that Barter had been promoted to Acting Lieutenant at some point before then and can't quite recall without checking through a lot of 'stuff' exactly when he became a full Lieutenant
Not 'Petina' as in the transcription I've uploaded here then?
Ah. That's good to know as it goes some way to confirming Thaissa's claim (much later on) that her father was a Major General in the Russian Army.
I think that's all I can do - quite a challenge to the old grey matter, but not in a bad way
Thank you *so* much for taking the time and trouble to help, Arthur. I'm glad you seem to have enjoyed the challenge. Quite an achievement too given your O Level Russian was quite a while ago.
I emailed the Russian Orthodox priest in question earlier today and have already had a reply indicating that he's willing to have a go at the document. Actually he's not a native Russian speaker, but of French origin, but I think he may have access to native speakers if need be. He's currently away from home without access to a printer which he feels will help with reading the Russian document, so I'll have to wait a while. I'll post again when I've received his transcription.
Thank you so much for the Russian Orthodox suggestion, Archie's Mum. I'm not at all sure that I'd have thought of that idea myself.
Isn't 'Top Dog' a wonderful source of help and ideas? I'm so grateful to all who have contributed to this thread.
Oops - Sergievich.
No, the initial letter is more like the one in Rudolph than the one in Pavel.
Anyway, it's been fun.
Archie's Mum
Always digging up clues
It was actually the first thing I thought of. Probably because I pass one regularly.
Hope he can help you.
AnnB
Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!
Yes
It never ceases to amaze me how many pools of expertise we can draw on - and I certainly never thought that such a query as translating a document from Russian to English would be met with so many takers and suggestions - well done all.
Archie's Mum
Always digging up clues
Mostly I think it is why it works. Different views from different perspectives. Sometimes we hit a brickwall sometimes we are successful and I think we are more successful many times than not. If we aren't we go back and attack it from the other side. Seems to work here.
Philippa
Always a lady.
Funny how it's not all about research methods (good and bad, tried and true, should've would've could've and all the rest) but personal experiences open other doors as well. We have Orthodox Churches around where we live but mostly Greek, not Russian, so I would never have thought of them. My work experience exposed me to Russian natives, so of course my first stop would be in that direction. Someone on TD has a saying which mentions how together we can do so much - but of course I can't remember who, nor can I dredge up the actual quote!! Irrespective of short term memory problems, it's so true and long may it remain that way.
Do let us know how you get on with the translation, won't you Carole?
Do let us know how you get on with the translation, won't you Carole?
