Bowles Family - County Tipperary

[Peregrine]

Don Winnett, I am sure you will have a copy of William Alva Winnett's book, "Contract Fulfilled", if so please turn to Page 91. This will explain why you may not hear from me for a while, I will be busy digging for treasure in my own backyard.

For my Top Dog friends page 91 provides transcriptions of the following records:

• Joseph Winnett's baptism on 26 May 1822
• Marriage of Jane Bowles and Joseph Winnett in Kilmore Church by licence on 12 Sep 1849
• The Dowry Agreement for the marriage dated 12 Sep 1849

Crucially page 91 also states: "The originals of these three documents are held by Joe Pederick. (Dowry, Baptism and Marriage Certificates.) Joe Pederick is, of course, my grandfather.

It is therefore highly probably that I have all three documents stored away with either Aunty Phyllis' (Joe's second wife) documents or my mother's documents.

Meanwhile I expect the Top Dog rule book makers to develop a new rule about looking for treasure in one's own backyard.

N.B Apparently the parish was called Kilmore, and Kilmore
Church refers to the big church in the parish, which was located in the largest town which is Silvermines. See http://www.killaloediocese.ie/parish/silvermines/

 

[Don Winnett]

Yes I do indeed have that book so please keep digging!

 

[Peregrine]

I have been through a couple of boxes and found some interesting things but not what I am looking for. I did find the typed transcription of the dowry agreement that Phyllis would have typed up, copies of which must have been sent to David Turvey and William Alva Winnett for their books. But not the original which was apparently in beautiful handwriting.
Plenty of boxes to look through, and I have not located my mother's stuff yet. However I won't be able to go digging for the next few days.

 

[Don Winnett]

Thanks Esther. Do you have any info on James Bowles(I have his birth info) and Elizabeth Barber by any chance?

 

[Peregrine]

Thanks Esther. Do you have any info on James Bowles(I have his birth info) and Elizabeth Barber by any chance?

I know nothing about them except that James was a shoemaker, gleaned from William Bowles immigration record. I also note that the dowry agreement was witnessed by a John Barber, and wonder whether he was Elizabeth's sibling.

I have traced some of Jane Bowles' siblings but may not have them all: I noted another name on someone's tree the other day. I will send you a personal message so we can exchange info via email.

 

[she04]

Sadly records on the years you gave are definately not available from PRONI. Also a tip, keep checking once a month on family search, as they are still updating Irish records (but very slowly). Another tip is to look for alternative spellings of the surname, as Irish records have a habit of spelling names wrongly on records x x

 

[Melbourne101]

Note: I could not find County Tipperary listed under the Munster Province.


My great great grandmother was Jane Bowles who married Joseph Winnett 13 Sep 1849 at Silvermines, Tipperary, Ireland. Joseph came from Killaloe in County Clare whereas Jane was born in Silvermines, County Tipperary. Jane and Joseph emigrated to Australia with their three children, Richard, Ellen and Elizabeth aboard the Horizon arriving in Melbourne on 9 Dec 1857. Two of Jane’s sisters travelled on the same ship: her married sister, Mrs Sarah Hardy, with her husband William and son Robert (by her first marriage) and her unmarried sister Mary Ann Bowles. Another sister, Mrs Miles also emigrated to Australia.

I am lucky to have a record of the family written by my grandfather Joe Pederick in 1956: it was written for his grandchildren and typed by my mother in quadruplicate. Joe explains that the explanation for the Winnett’s emigration is a curious one. “Grandma Winnett had a sister who was widowed very early in life. She later married her deceased husband’s brother. In so doing she violated a law of the church and created such a scandal that life became intolerable for them and they migrated to Australia. Apparently they liked the new country and soon she persuaded her three sisters, Mrs Miles, Mrs. Winnett and Miss Bowles to come out too.” As already detailed above, in fact all sisters, except Mrs Miles, travelled to Australia together on the Horizon.

I have a few issues that I am hoping someone on Top Dog may be able to help me with. On the death record for the son, Robert Hardy, his father’s name is given as Samuel Hardy, so I assumed that Sarah’s first husband was named Samuel. That is until today when someone on Ancestry kindly pointed out a marriage between a Sarah Bowles and Robert Hardy on 13 May 1845 at Ballynaclogh, Tipperary, Ireland. I have not found a death for Robert (or Samuel) but presumably he died about 1855 and Sarah subsequently married his brother, William, about 1856, before they came to Australia in 1857. I have not found the baptisms for any of the Hardy brothers and don’t know who their parents were. And finally I have not found with any certainty when Elizabeth, the fourth Bowles daughter, and her husband Edward Miles arrived in Australia. William Bowles appears to have arrived in Australia in 1820 aboard Alfred, and James in 1853 aboard Hanover. So perhaps it was the brothers who encouraged the sisters to come to Australia.

The parents of the Bowles siblings were James Bowles and Elizabeth Barber and in all I have found six of them: William, Elizabeth, Mary Ann, Sarah, James and Jane all born in County Tipperary, and most at Silvermines, in the 1820s. Mind I have not found a single baptism and they appear to be Protestant.

Any suggestions? Any help will be much appreciated. I think I hate dealing with Irish records as I never seem to get very far with them.

Cheers,

Esther

Good day Esther,
my name is Simon Miles of Melbourne Australia. My great great grandmother was Eliza Bowles, married to Edward Miles.
Edward and Eliza married in County Tipperary in 1851. Edward was age 18 and Eliza was just 17.
I would guess from your information that they married in Silvermines however this is not detailed in the online marriage records from irishgenealogy.ie
We have no information as to when they travelled to Australia or which ship they took but I can confirm that they settled in Avoca Victoria and Edward became a gold miner.
Edward and Eliza had 7 children: Edward William, Eliza born 1853, Kate born 1856, James, Jane born 1860, Adelaide born 1864, and John born 8th of June,1867.
John was born in the district of Avoca and was my great grandfather. I have his original Birth Certificate. It states that his parents were Edward Miles, miner, age 34 years of county Kerry Ireland and Eliza Bowles age 33 years of County Tipperary Ireland.
I have no knowledge of the other children or their decendants.
John married ... ( i dont recall but i have on file in Melbourne. I am currently not in Australia) John was a Station Master .They had one child, Alan Edward.
Alan Edward married Ivy Alison Lewis in St Arnaud,Victoria. They had two children, Alan Keith Miles ( known as Keith) born 5th June 1924 and Marjorie Alison (Thomson).They moved to Melbourne and settled in Fairfield, then later moved to Ivanhoe.
Alan Edward died in 1944 aged 44 and is buried in The Anglican section of Fawkner Cemetary.His father John, a widower, came to live with Ivy and the 2 children to be of support. When John passed away he was buried beside his wife in Bridgewater-on-Loddon, Victoria.
Keith Miles married Elizabeth DuRieu in Ivanhoe in 1952.
They had 3 sons, Christopher Charles born 1953, Simon John (yours truly) born 1956, and Andrew Keith born 1967.
Keith Miles was a prominent Interior Designer in Melbourne. He passed away on 12th February 2011. Elizabeth, known as Beth, passed away in November 2012.

 

[Melbourne101]

Just a quick look and I'm assuming they emigrated to Victoria, finds an Edward Myles 23 and Eliza Myles 22 arriving on the 'Sea' in 1851 to Victoria. I have checked NSW and Queensland to no avail but I didn't have anything more than a peek!

Edward Miles married Eliza Bowles in 1851 in Ireland. They were age 18 and 17. However I would not discount this find entirely. It was a common error to confuse spelling of Miles and Myles. Could it be that Edward and Eliza migrated the same year they married and faked their ages because they were so young? Do we know anymore about the Barber link in Bourke St Melbourne?

 

[Peregrine]

Good day Esther,
my name is Simon Miles of Melbourne Australia. My great great grandmother was Eliza Bowles, married to Edward Miles.
Edward and Eliza married in County Tipperary in 1851. Edward was age 18 and Eliza was just 17.
I would guess from your information that they married in Silvermines however this is not detailed in the online marriage records from irishgenealogy.ie
We have no information as to when they travelled to Australia.

Welcome to Top Dog Simon and what a wonderful surprise you have sent me. I do have Edward and Eliza in my tree but none of their descendants so what a wonderful gift you have sent me. Thank you. All that lovely information about the Miles family, which as soon as I get a chance I will review and absorb. Unfortunately today is my turn to mind my 22 month old granddaughter, so it will have to wait a day at least. But I will get back to you soon.

P.S. I live in Melbourne too.

 

[Peregrine]

Edward Miles married Eliza Bowles in 1851 in Ireland. They were age 18 and 17. However I would not discount this find entirely. It was a common error to confuse spelling of Miles and Myles. Could it be that Edward and Eliza migrated the same year they married and faked their ages because they were so young? Do we know anymore about the Barber link in Bourke St Melbourne?

I feel it is definitely Edward and Eliza arriving on the "Sea", it is not uncommon for ages to be amended, raised or lowered, to meet some requirement. I have done some research and determined that the W. Barber nominated as their contact was Walker Barber, who was a draper in Bourke Street. He died in Apr 1855, a month after his wife Elizabeth nee Smith, they were both quite young. There are quite a few articles about his Estate on Trove (Elizabeth's brother John Thomas Smith was executor); http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article93144040 and http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154870412 are good examples.
Walker apparently came to Australia with a sister, Sarah arriving in Sydney on 18 Sep 1841, his age at the time was given as 20. A brother, Thomas, must also have come out to Australia; he is mentioned in various articles on Trove. Walker's parents were given as John Barber and Ellen Minaghan and he was from Nenagh, County Tipperary. I assume there is a connection to Elizabeth Barber, our ancestor, but what it is I have not yet determined.

 

[Peregrine]

Edward and Eliza had 7 children: Edward William, Eliza born 1853, Kate born 1856, James, Jane born 1860, Adelaide born 1864, and John born 8th of June,1867.

I have found birth records for all except Eliza and James: Edward William b 1852 at Melbourne, BDM #17513; Catherine b 1856 at Sandhurst, BDM # 14027; Jane b 1861 at Avoca, BDM # 15781; Adelaide b 1864 at Avoca, BDM # 12715 and John b 1867 at Avoca, BDM # 12296. Although I can't find a birth record, I have found James' death in 1862 at Sandhurst, age 4, BDM # 7839. I can't find anything for Eliza.

 

[Melbourne101]

I have found birth records for all except Eliza and James: Edward William b 1852 at Melbourne, BDM #17513; Catherine b 1856 at Sandhurst, BDM # 14027; Jane b 1861 at Avoca, BDM # 15781; Adelaide b 1864 at Avoca, BDM # 12715 and John b 1867 at Avoca, BDM # 12296. Although I can't find a birth record, I have found James' death in 1862 at Sandhurst, age 4, BDM # 7839. I can't find anything for Eliza.

wow thats great work Esther..thank you.
I have attached our physical copy of John's Birth certificate. It has hand written references to the other children.
I am hoping to find death records or burial records for Edward and Eliza but have not discovered anything yet. I have been searching cemetary records in and around Avoca.
Next month I will do a day trip to Bridgewater and Avoca to hunt around the cemetaries and repair John Miles grave.

 

[Melbourne101]

wow thats great work Esther..thank you.
I have attached our physical copy of John's Birth certificate. It has hand written references to the other children.
I am hoping to find death records or burial records for Edward and Eliza but have not discovered anything yet. I have been searching cemetary records in and around Avoca.
Next month I will do a day trip to Bridgewater and Avoca to hunt around the cemetaries and repair John Miles grave.

Update to last post I have located death records for Edward and Eliza Miles.
Edward's death was registered as 1888 aged 57 in Avoca. His parents names are registered simply as John and Catherine.
Eliza died in 1890 aged 59 in Avoca.Her parents names are listed as Jas Bowles and Eliza barber.

 

[Peregrine]

John married ... ( i dont recall but i have on file in Melbourne. I am currently not in Australia) John was a Station Master .They had one child, Alan Edward.
Alan Edward married Ivy Alison Lewis in St Arnaud, Victoria. They had two children, Alan Keith Miles ( known as Keith) born 5th June 1924 and Marjorie Alison (Thomson).They moved to Melbourne and settled in Fairfield, then later moved to Ivanhoe.

John's wife was Florence Alina Smith, who died on 12 Feb 1914 at Lismore, Victoria, when John was station master at Derrinallum. Her parents were James Benjamin and Mary Ann Smith. Her mother's maiden name may be Foley, in which case Florence was born in Port Sorrell, Tasmania on 13 Aug 1872 with name Florence Helena Smith but I am still checking and have some reservations. John and Florence certainly moved around with his work. Prior to being Station Master at Derrinallum he was Station Master at Elmhurst. Lismore and Derrinallum are well known to me: I was actually married at Lismore and my grandmother, father and brother were born there. Whereas Elmhurst features strongly in my husband's family history. Such small towns having so many connections with a wide range of family relations continually amazes me.

I found John living with Alan and Ivy at 125 Grange Road, Fairfield in the 1936 electoral roll and he died the following year at Fairfield, BDM # 8482. I found Ivy in 1943 at 13 Rotherwood Road, Ivanhoe East, but Alan was not listed there. I found Alan in 1942 at 61 Gooch Street, Ivanhoe, but Ivy was not listed there. Intriguing. Also noticed other people named Miles in same streets, and wonder if they are related somehow.

Enough for today. I am running out of time: we will be travelling overseas in two weeks and I really should be doing other things in preparation.

Edited to add: I was working away at this post when you were making your posts at #32 and #33, will look at them and get back to you later

 

[Peregrine]

Update to last post I have located death records for Edward and Eliza Miles.
Edward's death was registered as 1888 aged 57 in Avoca. His parents names are registered simply as John and Catherine.
Eliza died in 1890 aged 59 in Avoca.Her parents names are listed as Jas Bowles and Eliza barber.

Their burials with death dates can be found at http://www.australiancemeteries.com.au/vic/loddon/bridgewaterdata.htm

Oops that was burials for John and Florence, sorry. Obviously tired now.

 

[Tom LaPorte]

Thanks Esther. Do you have any info on James Bowles(I have his birth info) and Elizabeth Barber by any chance?

Hi Don
I've just joined here to ask you about James Bowles of Silvermines. I've been trying to connect him up with other Bowles lines in Tipperary for years so it was exciting to see your comment that you had his birth info.

To introduce myself, I live in Winnipeg in Central Canada and have been studying the Bowles/Boles surname for over 25 years. First in Canada, then I followed them to Ireland and now I am sorting out the roots of the family well into the 1100's. I have sorted out quite a few lines in Ireland and have found the earliest references for them in Cork, Limerick and Tipperary in the 1600's. I've been able to connect up many of them as the families moved around, mostly for new work opportunities. I have not been able to connect James Bowles of Silvermines' origins though. There was a line of Bowles with a James in each generation at Tulla, co. Clare which is not far from Silvermines but they were Catholic and James' line is pretty clearly Church of Ireland. James, although a shoemaker, is referred to as 'Gent' on Dennis Hanley's immigration reference and he held quite a bit of property in Silvermines under Lord Dunally including his own house on Dublin Road, the first house just off Main Street, which must have been quite decent as it had a 2 pound 8s valuation. Likely it was the typical shop on the main floor with the family living upstairs. He also lease a strip of land from Dunally at the north end of Main Street and developed 8 cottages on it. So he was industrious and had some money to work with.
Hope you can point me in the right direction.
Thanks in advance.
Tom

 

[Peregrine]

Hi Don
I've just joined here to ask you about James Bowles of Silvermines. I've been trying to connect him up with other Bowles lines in Tipperary for years so it was exciting to see your comment that you had his birth info.

To introduce myself, I live in Winnipeg in Central Canada and have been studying the Bowles/Boles surname for over 25 years. First in Canada, then I followed them to Ireland and now I am sorting out the roots of the family well into the 1100's. I have sorted out quite a few lines in Ireland and have found the earliest references for them in Cork, Limerick and Tipperary in the 1600's. I've been able to connect up many of them as the families moved around, mostly for new work opportunities. I have not been able to connect James Bowles of Silvermines' origins though. There was a line of Bowles with a James in each generation at Tulla, co. Clare which is not far from Silvermines but they were Catholic and James' line is pretty clearly Church of Ireland. James, although a shoemaker, is referred to as 'Gent' on Dennis Hanley's immigration reference and he held quite a bit of property in Silvermines under Lord Dunally including his own house on Dublin Road, the first house just off Main Street, which must have been quite decent as it had a 2 pound 8s valuation. Likely it was the typical shop on the main floor with the family living upstairs. He also lease a strip of land from Dunally at the north end of Main Street and developed 8 cottages on it. So he was industrious and had some money to work with.
Hope you can point me in the right direction.
Thanks in advance.
Tom

Welcome Tom, it is lovely to have you join Top Dog and especially so, for me, when you bring details about my 3xgreat grandfather! It doesn't look like I have chased up those birth details Don mentioned having, can't think why I would not have done so! I have James born in Waterford, but without any documentation attached and don't recall where I got that from now (it is the middle of the night here). So will wait to hear back from Don too.

 

[Tom LaPorte]

Thanks for the welcome Peregrine. I have a correction about those details that I submitted about your 3xg. I was hasty to say that he had developed the 8 cottages on his lots. It seems that it's more complicated than that but I'm still sorting out the details in the land records. I'm trying to get everything about James Bowles organized so I can post it to my web site so you can see it. That may take a few days yet as every time I have a good thinking session going on lately there seems to be yard work or house maintenance that I was supposed to be doing. So now I'm getting up 2 hours early to see if I can get some focus on this. It's closer but I still have to do the layout for the page.

Yes, it's really key to get that birth information for James. The reference to him being born in Waterford may be just a reference to the Diocese of Waterford and Lismore which is where the birth references would have been sent to from the individual parishes. That was/is a big diocese which included several parishes where I know there were Bowles by then: Cahir, Cappoquin, Carrick-on-Suir, Clonmel, Lismore and Ballysaggart, Tallow and more. So finding his birth info could tie him in to a known line. Hopefully Don will have it.

 

[Vivienne Helps]

My 2nd grandfather was John Bowles who came to Australia (age 24) on the John Bull in January 1840 and married Ellen Hogan (age 25) from the same ship in Melbourne in May 1840. I think his father was James Bowles of Silvermines. John was from Tipperary and I read on the Bowles Silvermines site that a son went to Australia in 1840 although it could also have been William. If anyone has any informtion on this, I would be grateful to hear it

 

[Vivienne Helps]

John was listed as a Catholic, aged 24 and travelled alone whereas William is listed as a Protestant, aged 20 and travelled with others. Could they have been brothers?. The site tells me that the father of both is James Bowles of Silvermines so I will keep researching and hope other members have even more information.