Photo: date or age?

Discussion in 'Ask The Experts' started by Yeates, Jul 29, 2013.

  1. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    I agree with Bay Horse and Gillyflower. Not the same lady at all.

    Now then how do we find out who she is?
     
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  2. Bay Horse

    Bay Horse Can be a bit of a dark horse

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    :nods: Even allowing for drastic loss/gain of weight, different hair styles etc.
     
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  3. Yeates

    Yeates Active Member

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    I have clues--strong clues (haven't seen the records myself, yet, so reluctant to say 'for sure')-- that JHP arrived in Canada (presumably BC) in 1911 and returned to England (supposedly there is an incoming ship record arrival Liverpool, December 1914, on the 'Lusitania' but I need to wait until I can get to the library to verify this. If so, he has left his family in England for over 3 years. Adventurer or not, that is a long time (if confirmed.)

    It is important I have had my opinion verified that this is definitely not the same lady.

    I look at the photo of JHP and his companion. They appear calm, happy, even capturing an important event in a professionaly photo. I take what I know of Matilda. I am left thinking they, however dysfunctional, were coping and content with their life choices. Is there a point where that is enough to know?

    I did follow-through on one theory I had about the lady being a widowed extended-family member. That has not panned out. So the question, WHO is the mystery lady? Without a marriage path (records up to their deaths suggest there was never a divorce betw JHP and Matilda)---needles and haystacks, eh?---Yeates
     
  4. Yeates

    Yeates Active Member

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    Forgot to add, that Lusitania voyage started in New York. It suggests--if true--he visited his son in Montreal before going to NY to board the ship. Even though born in Montreal, I believe JHP's grandson (my father) was a toddler and back in England at this time. Such story lines----suggests a juicy novel.---Yeates
     
  5. Bay Horse

    Bay Horse Can be a bit of a dark horse

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    He is on the Lusitania. How very odd. That backs up your theory; it suggests he has been in Canada a good while.
     
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  6. Half Hour

    Half Hour Well-Known Member

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    Looking at the border crossings, I don't see him down as crossing between Canada and the US. There is one Joseph Pope, but he was going to visit a daughter in the US whenever he crossed.
     
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  7. Yeates

    Yeates Active Member

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    Bay--does your italics on the word 'is' mean you are following my train of thought or that you have seen his ship record?

    No...I've not been able to find a St Albans record either. He only had the one daughter who was a teacher back in England, so would not have been visiting a daughter.---Yeates
     
  8. Bay Horse

    Bay Horse Can be a bit of a dark horse

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    Yes, Yeates - definitely your man. Address is the same as that of Matilda and children four years earlier.
     
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  9. Yeates

    Yeates Active Member

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    Wow. Thank you. It's going to be some time before I get to the library, so I appreciate this. Novel begets movie script....who to play JHP. Unfortunately, Spencer Tracy already deceased.---Yeates.
     
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  10. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    Yeates, Ancestry have indexed him on the Incoming Passenger Lists as:

    Joseph heary Paky born 1862, age 52. Arrival date: 12 Dec 1914
     
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  11. Bay Horse

    Bay Horse Can be a bit of a dark horse

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    Actually, Yeates... on closer inspection the address given is directly across the street from where Matilda and family were living. It could be a clerical error, or Matilda could have moved there herself before 1915.

    Mealymoo, no wonder I couldn't find it. :D
     
  12. Yeates

    Yeates Active Member

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    Thank you!

    What is the address listed? Matilda lived at 13 Plaistow Grove through all the Bromley years.
     
  13. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    Heading to 12 Plaistow Grove. Bromley, Kent
    The box is ticked for his remaining in UK-future permanent residence.

    p.s. forgive my typo in your name earlier please Yeates.
    pps. I took the liberty of leaving a name correction.
     
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  14. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    Well done, Wendy
     
  15. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    I rather tend to gowith Gillyflower here. There are lines to the side of the mans eyes under his eyes which look rather tired or careworn, perhaps just sad. Unless it's just the photo paper he seems to have lines at the side of his cheeks & throat lines also.
    Perhaps back then the cares of the day made men look so much older than they were.

    Back to the vacuuming!
     
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  16. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    Had an idea ( yes, vacuuming finished) 1901 a Harry Dunmall 27,& wife Edith 28,(need Rowe) were living at 12 Plaistowe Grove, with son William 2, & Niece Edith Rowe 8. Harry a yardman -lab'r.
    1911 Same family with 3 extra children, no niece. Harry a builder's storekeeper.

    Yeates, have you tried to contact any of Matilda & Joseph's offspring or children of such? Possibly with a view to another photo featuring same Lady with a name?
     
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  17. Bay Horse

    Bay Horse Can be a bit of a dark horse

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    Just waking up with a second cup of coffee here.

    I looked for Harry the builder's storekeeper's death record last night out of interest and he seemed to live a long life. I think the '13' was a slip of the pen, to be honest - I think Joseph was heading home.

    Ma, I'd agree he is older than 50. (I'm about to turn 50 myself, and am at the age where everyone looks much older or younger than myself.) I've just been looking at my own family photos from about 1920, and all their faces have a youthful bloom making them appear much younger; I think it was how photos were processed around that time.
     
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  18. Yeates

    Yeates Active Member

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    This is valuable information for me. Thank you so much as it was going to drive me crazy until I can again drive to the library.
    and....heh heh heh never mind about the typo....you and the 18th century parish registers...Yeates
     
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  19. Yeates

    Yeates Active Member

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    Wendy: This is interesting additional information. The “12 Plaistow Grove” probably a mistake of some sort, although a coincidence exists. That is, even though on various records JHP is listed as a carpenter; joiner; or turner, on this death cert he is listed as a builder’s carpenter. So it would seem Mr. Dunmall and JHP were linked to more than living on the same street. I know that JHP had another property at 48 Southlands Road which I thought had been tied to his business.

    My father and his sister were the only grandchildren of Matilda and JHP. On trips to England, I was able to meet M & JHP’s other children, my great auntie and great uncle, several times. Other than the joy of reunion and events of the day, no past information or family stories were shared---at least with me. I was too young and too shy to take full advantage of those meetings.

    We are a family with very few photos, I’m afraid. Thank you for delving a layer deeper with this census info.---Yeates
     
  20. Yeates

    Yeates Active Member

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    Bay: heh heh I'm a 2-cupper and check TopDog at the same time, myself.
    This is speculation, but I think post 1913 recording of Joseph's address as 13 Plaistow is for social appearances. Other things point to the fact that the marriage, while not dissolved, was estranged.
    I've always thought he looked 60---this based on family members who resembled him when they were 60.---Yeates
     

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