Photo Date?

Discussion in 'Ask The Experts' started by Andrew Davies, Nov 11, 2017.

  1. gillyflower

    gillyflower Always caring about others

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    What a lovely photo. I think it dates sometime in the 1870's. Is it in England? I feel whilst not a mourning picture it was perhaps a 'semi' mourning if that makes sense.
    I think the little girls dress is strange - as it is showing her chest & shoulders. As to the Language of flowers - well I think they are roses at least 2 of them. While I am no expert on the meanings I think it means unconditional love - also courage & respect. So perhaps something to do with a bereavement? what a mystery!:) I an a bit dubious about family stories - I think what started as fairly accurate could easily get changed over time a bit like Chinese Whispers. Those are my thoughts & I may easy be wrong!
     
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  2. Steve Bumstead

    Steve Bumstead Well-Known Member

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    I don't think they are real flowers, but added in colour by hand painting. They don't look in scale, and some of the bunch don't resemble flowers. Could they be hiding something else the child was holding?
     
  3. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    The flowers clearly have been painted in later, because they didn't have colour photography then (and it's the only bit in colour too). If they were painted over something different, that rather reinforces the idea that they were meant to convey a particular meaning.

    I'm still hoping that someone will be able to identify them - my best guesses for the large one on the right are anemone, chrysanthemum, dahlia or zinnia (in alphabetical order). Many of these seem to be associated with absence - and the colour comes into it as well.

    There actually appear to be 5 different flowers there, so possibly a fairly complex message. Gillyflower has mentioned a rose; is the top one apple blossom?
    I suppose the question might be why Millicent was brought up by an uncle rather than her father. Did her father have a job which involved travel or other absence? Are her parents found together in the 1870s-1880s? (Hutchinson or Hodgkinson? - I assume one is a typo.)
     
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  4. Andrew Davies

    Andrew Davies Well-Known Member

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    No typo, Hutchinson was what the family believed her maiden name was. I eventually discovered it was Hodgkinson. I thought the two surnames pertinent to the discovery of the Prison Governor.

    1871 census they are together and his profession was a "Horse dealers assistant" I would imagine quite some travelling with this role.
    Registration district: Camberwell
    Sub-registration district: Peckham
    ED, institution, or vessel: 6
    Household schedule number: 201
    Piece: 731
    Folio: 20
    Page number: 33

    1881 census there is no sign of William (Father) but Emma (Mother) gives her occupation as this:-

    Anne Hodgkinson.png

    It's transcribed as Horse Travellers Wife.

    Registration district: Camberwell
    Sub registration district: Peckham
    ED, institution, or vessel: 6
    Piece: 681
    Folio: 51
    Page number: 33
     
  5. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    I think I actually meant were William and his wife found together in the 1860s-1870s, not 1870s-1880s - the earlier period would be more relevant to Millicent's childhood.

    Horse traveller? - travelling was part of a horse dealer's work, see "dealer, horse" at
    Code:
    http://doot.spub.co.uk/code.php?value=770
    I wonder if he ever did extended trips, even abroad?
     
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  6. Andrew Davies

    Andrew Davies Well-Known Member

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    They were both on the 1861 census where his occupation is "Groom & Gentleman"
    Registration district: Kensington
    Sub-registration district: St Mary Paddington
    ED, institution, or vessel: 23
    Household schedule number: 215
    Piece: 5
    Folio: 121
    Page number: 58
     
  7. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    Looking at the censuses, there's a 1 year old Henry in 1861 who isn't there in 1871. I've found the following in the GRO indexes, both as Henry William Hodgkinson:
    Birth - Dec qtr 1859 Stoke on Trent, mmn Bates (6b 165)
    Death - Sep qtr 1862 Kensington, aged 2 (1a 4)

    Bates is the mmn for all the children shown in the censuses, and Ann Bates, mother, is there in 1871 - maybe there wasn't room to write mother-in-law.

    Anyway, how about the photo dating from 1862, and the sadness/possible mourning is because little Henry has died?
     
  8. GrannyBarb

    GrannyBarb Custodian of the Family Accounts

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    I'm going to interject another "thot." Feel free to shoot it down. Is it possible that the child was holding something that blurred in the photo, so was touched up to disguise an oops? Returning to my quiet corner now.
     
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  9. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    The bottom end of the flowers doesn't really look like stems unless wrapped, may have been a handkerchief or a 'dolly'.
     
  10. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

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    Looks like two legs to me. I wonder why it was covered up if that's the case.
    Then again on closer look, there are four of them...:confused:
     
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  11. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

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    So I had to look again, colouring is off putting - maybe those legs are stems after all same as the kaki color on two of the flower leaves/ stems.
    Wash day, away am I again.
     
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  12. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One

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    Wondering if the flowers are Roses, could also be a variety of Poppy, then again probably a "hundred and one" flowers they could be. :confused: :D
     
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  13. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One

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    Apple or perhaps May blossom.
     
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  14. kernowmaid

    kernowmaid Well-Known Member

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    Andrew, can you post the snip of the flowers so that it can be enlarged?
    I think that Arthur is correct in detecting a message there. We just need someone who can read it!
    I'm no good with flowers (Dandelion & Bluebell are about my limit!).
    One of those in the pic looks like a catapult to me :eek: but I think there's a Daisy and that's usually for "Innocence".
    So perhaps Arthur's on the correct track (he often is!) with the death of a child.

    I learn something new every day with Top Dog. Did you know that:
    - a PINK Carnation means "I will never forget you"
    - a RED Carnation means "Yes!"
    - a YELLOW Carnation means "No!"
    - a STRIPED Carnation means "Maybe!"

    Source: http://www. languageofflowers. com/flowermeaning.htm#anchora
    (I hope the link is broken - the site is probably commercial)

    Jane
     
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  15. kernowmaid

    kernowmaid Well-Known Member

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    IF the red flower nearest her finger is an ADONIS (Pheasant's Eye) (Google it! I'd never heard of it either :) ) that stands for "Sorrowful Remembrance".

    Jane
     
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  16. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    Adonis looks good - that site also has red poppy for consolation.
     
  17. gillyflower

    gillyflower Always caring about others

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    Do you think we are placing too much emphasis on the flowers? I have an old photo and certain bits of it were coloured - by hand. Perhaps as GrannyBarb said the hands were blurred and were painted over? :)
     
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  18. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    I am not convinced that the flowers have any significance either, other than being a ‘prop’. The lady is holding a book, another ‘prop’, probably supplied by the photographer. Is there a photographer’s name anywhere on the photo?
     
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  19. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One

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    My thoughts too Ann, it never occurred to me that there would be a message conveyed by the flowers, having seen some photos of that era and later times I noticed that most if not all photographers had their Pros and that's what I thought the the flowers and book were. Might well be wrong though!
     
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  20. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    Given that there was an established language of flowers, and the flowers here have been hand-coloured to make them the most prominent feature of the image, I find it hard to believe that they are just there by chance. I suspect the book may have some hidden meaning too...
     
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