Brick wall {do not read on if you don't want a headache}

I can see only one Chapman family in Willesden in 1841 and 1851 - the one where head of family is John a grocer, his wife Margaret and their children.
 
arthurk said:
Thomas Chapman who married Elizabeth Andrews in 1872 - I wonder if he's part of the family in 1851 at HO107/1536 fo477 p46 - in Shoreditch:

Father Frederick, a stonemason, with wife and 2 children including Thomas. Maybe that's where Thomas met Elizabeth, but he moved out to Willesden and they married there.

(Could your Thomas have gone back to Willesden from Wales to marry???)

Hope all's well with your daughter - someone will be here when you're ready to start again.
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Elizabeth was pregnant in 1872 with her son Henry he was born in the 4th quarter.
Mealymoo said:
Or, might he be Thomas Chapman being researched here, and the beer house keeper is the Thomas who is elusive pre 1871?
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I do not know they are a nightmare. I can't think straight today didn't get back until 20 past 11 then slept late for work this morning. At least my daughter will be better soon.
While I remember three of Thomas and Elizabeth's daughters have the middle name Ann.That has got to mean that they was named after someone close to Thomas and Elizabeth.????
Mary Ann
Amelia Ann
Florence Ann
4th daughter is Alice Matilda
2 sons Thomas and Henry
According to 1911 census Thomas and Elizabeth had 8 children.
 
We have two Thomas Chapman's claiming to have been born Willesden circa 1840, in 1871 censuses and onward both are with a wife Elizabeth and their respective children.

There appears to be only one Chapman family in Willesden in 1841 and 1851, which does include a son Thomas born circa 1840, so we cannot be certain which of the two Thomas's this is, can we? Am I missing something!
 
Thomas Chapman a bricklayer in 1871 (1881 and 91 a publican)

His wife Elizabeth and eldest child also Elizabeth were both born Goudhurst, Kent. The registration district for Goudhurst was Cranbrook and this marriage looks promising. June 1866, Cranbrook, vol 2a, page 922, Thomas Chapman also indexed Elizabeth Apps. An Elizabeth Apps born Goudhurst is with her family in 1851. HO107; Piece: 1619; Folio: 234; Page: 13;

Buying the above marriage certificate should tell you Thomas Chapman's father's name and occupation, which in turn will help you to eliminate, or not, your Thomas being the son of John the grocer living in Willesden.
 
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Had to put in my two bob's worth, possibly missing something from earlier posts but here goes:
Looking for Thomas in censuses before 1871 with positive sighting didn't happen, unless the Kent sites are for him & his Father died early & Thomas misremembered his name, [early move to London] likewise a baptism- one for a Thomas William Chapman, 10 Feb 1839 St Botolph, Aldersgate City of London t0 George David Chapman,+Jane Chapman. but 2nd name not mentioned in later
censuses..

I haven't looked for a John Chapman yet [marriage witness]

Elizabeth Harvey b.20 Dec. 1834
Bap.18 Jan 1835 Bethnal Green St Matthew Tower Hamlets Joseph Harvey,+
Elizabeth Harvey.[ She may have been a later entry but Bethnal Gn. not mentioned.]

1871 : RG10; Piece: 5380; Folio: 70; Page: 22;
Thomas Chapman 30 Witerden, Middlesex- could almost be Willesden
Elizabeth Chapman 32 Bethnal Green, Middlesex,
Mary Ann Chapman 3 Wallington, Oxfordshire
............
in the 1911 Wales Census
Name: Thomas Chapman
Age in 1911: 70
Estimated birth year: abt 1841
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Wildesdem, Midlesex
Civil Parish: Rhondda
25 Lincoln St Cymmer Rhondda Glam
Estimated Marriage Year: 1864
Thomas Chapman 70 Widowed
Years Married: 47
Mary Elizabeth Chapman Granddaughter B: Lantrisant, Glamorgan, Wales
............................
poss. death
Thomas Chapman
Birth Date: abt 1841
Date of Registration: Mar 1924
Age at Death: 83
Registration district: Pontypridd
Inferred County: Glamorganshire
Volume: 11a-790
 
Just saw yours Lizzy. Is there a brother John mentioned in early censuses?
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Hi Wendy :), we don't believe the marriage between Thomas Chapman and Elizabeth Harvey (with witness, John Chapman) is the right one. We think that marriage is the couple @ #1 on Arthur's list below.

I think #2 on Arthur's list is the marriage between TC and Elizabeth Apps @ #46.; as yet not found a marriage for Allison's ancestors.

arthurk said:
Just to summarise, then, we appear to have 3x Thomas Chapman. Going from 1881 entries they are:
1. Station Master in Wadhurst (age 41, born Southborough)
2. Beer House Keeper in Willesden (age 41, born Willesden)
3. Labourer in Llandaff (age 40, born Willesden)

We think no.1 married Elizabeth Harvey in Stepney in 1868.
No.2 might be the one born 21 Nov 1839 to John (b. Lingfield) & Margaret Eliza
No.3 still hasn't been seen before the birth of Mary Anne in Watlington in 1867.
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Mealymoo said:
Thomas Chapman a bricklayer in 1871 (1881 and 91 a publican)

His wife Elizabeth and eldest child also Elizabeth were both born Goudhurst, Kent. The registration district for Goudhurst was Cranbrook and this marriage looks promising. June 1866, Cranbrook, vol 2a, page 922, Thomas Chapman also indexed Elizabeth Apps. An Elizabeth Apps born Goudhurst is with her family in 1851. HO107; Piece: 1619; Folio: 234; Page: 13;

Buying the above marriage certificate should tell you Thomas Chapman's father's name and occupation, which in turn will help you to eliminate, or not, your Thomas being the son of John the grocer living in Willesden.
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From Ancestrys: England, Select Marriages, 1538–1973

Name: Thomas Chapman
Gender: Male
Marriage Date: 1 May 1866
Marriage Place: Goudhurst, Kent, England
Father: John Chapman
Spouse: Elizabeth Apps

Therefore can we assume the Thomas Chapman, father John, sighted on 1841 and 51 census in Willesden is the beer house keeper! Probably!

Back to searching for a Thomas Chapman and Elizabeth Harvey marriage, and both of them in earlier census.

According to census returns Elizabeth was born circa 1839, maybe she was married previously but even though that may be the case it doesn't help in finding Thomas pre 1871. :confused:
 
Mealymoo said:
According to census returns Elizabeth was born circa 1839, maybe she was married previously
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An Elizabeth Harvey married Jun qrt 1859, Lambeth, two grooms indexed - one being James Oliver.

A Thomas Harvey married Sept qrt 1868, N. Witchford, only bride listed is Elizabeth Oliver. Clutching at straws now, but nothing else to clutch onto ;)

Forget that marriage, James Oliver married Caroline Poole.

It was worth a try, at this state of confusion ANYTHING is worth a try :headbang:
 
Thanks Lizzie, not a good day fr me to try going over it all again,-abit worried over small dog's ear infection.waiting to see Vet.- plus hed cold chiming in. :(

#3 Allison says the girls which are in her family have a Mother named Elizabeth Harvey. cannot find another marriage for said Lady to Chapman. Too much worry about her birth is not wise as we ave all had people who change their birth date at the drop of a hanky. I did wonder too if her Father was George & the Fathers names were mixed on the marriage lines.
The address of Rutland st. may have been a convenience address while they were waiting to marry- was often done.

I tried for the Rutland st address, all I found were these two:
James Chapman 1870 London St John, Hampstead 3 Rutland terrace
William Harvey 1870 London St John, Hampstead 8 Rutland terrace.

Over & back to you all, sorry must prep dinner before going to Vet.
 
Ma-dotcom said:
Thanks Lizzie, not a good day fr me to try going over it all again,-abit worried over small dog's ear infection.waiting to see Vet.- plus hed cold chiming in. :(

#3 Allison says the girls which are in her family have a Mother named Elizabeth Harvey. cannot find another marriage for said Lady to Chapman. Too much worry about her birth is not wise as we ave all had people who change their birth date at the drop of a hanky. I did wonder too if her Father was George & the Fathers names were mixed on the marriage lines.
The address of Rutland st. may have been a convenience address while they were waiting to marry- was often done.

I tried for the Rutland st address, all I found were these two:
James Chapman 1870 London St John, Hampstead 3 Rutland terrace
William Harvey 1870 London St John, Hampstead 8 Rutland terrace.

Over & back to you all, sorry must prep dinner before going to Vet.
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Hi Wendy, as Rutland St was the address given by the 'other' Elizabeth Harvey it probably has no bearing on Allison's search.

Here's where we're at, and it isn't very far :(

Thomas Chapman and his wife Elizabeth plus various children can be found on census 1871 onwards. Allison has birth certificates for three of the children, all giving Harvey as MMN. Before 1871 we haven't found either Thomas or Elizabeth and no marriage.

I'm inclined to believe either they never married, or one of them changed their surname. Only one Thomas Chapman can be found in 1841 and 51 born Willesden, and he's not Allison's Thomas, so perhaps Thomas changed his name OR he wasn't born Willesden, but he is consistent throughout the census returns that Willesden is his birth place.

I hope you're feeling better now and little doggie too. :)
 
Thank you for all your help. I hope that your dog is better too.
Yes Thomas and Elizabeth are very consistent with their places of birth and birth years until Elizabeth dies in 1910 Pontypridd, Thomas then says that she was born in 1837. She was obviously older than him but somethings not right with these two, nothing makes sense. They could have changed their names but both of them? If Elizabeth did maybe her name was Ann as 3 of her daughters middle names was Ann.
 
Ann is such a lovely name :)
Little 'Bailey ' has a nasty fungal ear infection & also a touch of arthritis. the fact that he is now about 12 yrs old threw me a bit, I keep forgetting to add years onto people & evidently dogs too. Hoping the meds clear him soon. Thanks you all for kind comments.

I wonder of one of the players in this story was trying to stay removed from their family & so changed names about, along with their place of abode?
 
Ma-dotcom said:
Little 'Bailey ' has a nasty fungal ear infection & also a touch of arthritis. the fact that he is now about 12 yrs old threw me a bit, I keep forgetting to add years onto people & evidently dogs too. Hoping the meds clear him soon. Thanks you all for kind comments
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():-)
 
Any ideas where I can look, I do not know where else to search or what to do with this couple. What I do know is that somethings not right and it's driving me crazy trying to find them.
 
Hi Allison,

For the time being I'm stumped myself. I think it a strong possibility Thomas was not registered as Chapman at birth, but I've not found a likely Thomas with a different surname. The major problem is not finding a marriage to fit, so perhaps they never did marry. I'm wondering if one of them was already married when they met which could be a reason for them not marrying. Happened with my grandfather's half brother and he too was living many miles away from his home town so able to stay under the radar, he didn't change his surname but did change his first name and added 5yrs to his age.
 
Thank you all for your help. I now have someone else's opinion of the marriage in 1868 Stepney and can at last remove it from being a possibility.
 
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