Brick wall {do not read on if you don't want a headache}

Discussion in 'Ask The Experts' started by Allison, Oct 15, 2016.

  1. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

    Offline
    Messages:
    2,531
    Likes Received:
    5,973
    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    I can see only one Chapman family in Willesden in 1841 and 1851 - the one where head of family is John a grocer, his wife Margaret and their children.
     
  2. Allison

    Allison New Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    8
    Location:
    Rhondda, South Wales
    Elizabeth was pregnant in 1872 with her son Henry he was born in the 4th quarter.
     
  3. Allison

    Allison New Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    8
    Location:
    Rhondda, South Wales
    I do not know they are a nightmare. I can't think straight today didn't get back until 20 past 11 then slept late for work this morning. At least my daughter will be better soon.
    While I remember three of Thomas and Elizabeth's daughters have the middle name Ann.That has got to mean that they was named after someone close to Thomas and Elizabeth.????
    Mary Ann
    Amelia Ann
    Florence Ann
    4th daughter is Alice Matilda
    2 sons Thomas and Henry
    According to 1911 census Thomas and Elizabeth had 8 children.
     
  4. Allison

    Allison New Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    8
    Location:
    Rhondda, South Wales
    Thank you for your help
     
    Daft Bat likes this.
  5. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

    Offline
    Messages:
    2,531
    Likes Received:
    5,973
    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    We have two Thomas Chapman's claiming to have been born Willesden circa 1840, in 1871 censuses and onward both are with a wife Elizabeth and their respective children.

    There appears to be only one Chapman family in Willesden in 1841 and 1851, which does include a son Thomas born circa 1840, so we cannot be certain which of the two Thomas's this is, can we? Am I missing something!
     
  6. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

    Offline
    Messages:
    2,531
    Likes Received:
    5,973
    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    Thomas Chapman a bricklayer in 1871 (1881 and 91 a publican)

    His wife Elizabeth and eldest child also Elizabeth were both born Goudhurst, Kent. The registration district for Goudhurst was Cranbrook and this marriage looks promising. June 1866, Cranbrook, vol 2a, page 922, Thomas Chapman also indexed Elizabeth Apps. An Elizabeth Apps born Goudhurst is with her family in 1851. HO107; Piece: 1619; Folio: 234; Page: 13;

    Buying the above marriage certificate should tell you Thomas Chapman's father's name and occupation, which in turn will help you to eliminate, or not, your Thomas being the son of John the grocer living in Willesden.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2016
  7. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

    Offline
    Messages:
    6,509
    Likes Received:
    16,679
    Location:
    South Australia
    Had to put in my two bob's worth, possibly missing something from earlier posts but here goes:
    Looking for Thomas in censuses before 1871 with positive sighting didn't happen, unless the Kent sites are for him & his Father died early & Thomas misremembered his name, [early move to London] likewise a baptism- one for a Thomas William Chapman, 10 Feb 1839 St Botolph, Aldersgate City of London t0 George David Chapman,+Jane Chapman. but 2nd name not mentioned in later
    censuses..

    I haven't looked for a John Chapman yet [marriage witness]

    Elizabeth Harvey b.20 Dec. 1834
    Bap.18 Jan 1835 Bethnal Green St Matthew Tower Hamlets Joseph Harvey,+
    Elizabeth Harvey.[ She may have been a later entry but Bethnal Gn. not mentioned.]

    1871 : RG10; Piece: 5380; Folio: 70; Page: 22;
    Thomas Chapman 30 Witerden, Middlesex- could almost be Willesden
    Elizabeth Chapman 32 Bethnal Green, Middlesex,
    Mary Ann Chapman 3 Wallington, Oxfordshire
    ............
    in the 1911 Wales Census
    Name: Thomas Chapman
    Age in 1911: 70
    Estimated birth year: abt 1841
    Relation to Head: Head
    Gender: Male
    Birth Place: Wildesdem, Midlesex
    Civil Parish: Rhondda
    25 Lincoln St Cymmer Rhondda Glam
    Estimated Marriage Year: 1864
    Thomas Chapman 70 Widowed
    Years Married: 47
    Mary Elizabeth Chapman Granddaughter B: Lantrisant, Glamorgan, Wales
    ............................
    poss. death
    Thomas Chapman
    Birth Date: abt 1841
    Date of Registration: Mar 1924
    Age at Death: 83
    Registration district: Pontypridd
    Inferred County: Glamorganshire
    Volume: 11a-790
     
  8. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

    Offline
    Messages:
    6,509
    Likes Received:
    16,679
    Location:
    South Australia
    Just saw yours Lizzy. Is there a brother John mentioned in early censuses?
     
  9. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

    Offline
    Messages:
    2,531
    Likes Received:
    5,973
    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    Hi Wendy :), we don't believe the marriage between Thomas Chapman and Elizabeth Harvey (with witness, John Chapman) is the right one. We think that marriage is the couple @ #1 on Arthur's list below.

    I think #2 on Arthur's list is the marriage between TC and Elizabeth Apps @ #46.; as yet not found a marriage for Allison's ancestors.

     
  10. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

    Offline
    Messages:
    2,531
    Likes Received:
    5,973
    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    From Ancestrys: England, Select Marriages, 1538–1973

    Name: Thomas Chapman
    Gender: Male
    Marriage Date: 1 May 1866
    Marriage Place: Goudhurst, Kent, England
    Father: John Chapman
    Spouse: Elizabeth Apps

    Therefore can we assume the Thomas Chapman, father John, sighted on 1841 and 51 census in Willesden is the beer house keeper! Probably!

    Back to searching for a Thomas Chapman and Elizabeth Harvey marriage, and both of them in earlier census.

    According to census returns Elizabeth was born circa 1839, maybe she was married previously but even though that may be the case it doesn't help in finding Thomas pre 1871. :confused:
     
  11. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

    Offline
    Messages:
    2,531
    Likes Received:
    5,973
    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    An Elizabeth Harvey married Jun qrt 1859, Lambeth, two grooms indexed - one being James Oliver.

    A Thomas Harvey married Sept qrt 1868, N. Witchford, only bride listed is Elizabeth Oliver. Clutching at straws now, but nothing else to clutch onto ;)

    Forget that marriage, James Oliver married Caroline Poole.

    It was worth a try, at this state of confusion ANYTHING is worth a try :headbang:
     
  12. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

    Offline
    Messages:
    6,509
    Likes Received:
    16,679
    Location:
    South Australia
    Thanks Lizzie, not a good day fr me to try going over it all again,-abit worried over small dog's ear infection.waiting to see Vet.- plus hed cold chiming in. :(

    #3 Allison says the girls which are in her family have a Mother named Elizabeth Harvey. cannot find another marriage for said Lady to Chapman. Too much worry about her birth is not wise as we ave all had people who change their birth date at the drop of a hanky. I did wonder too if her Father was George & the Fathers names were mixed on the marriage lines.
    The address of Rutland st. may have been a convenience address while they were waiting to marry- was often done.

    I tried for the Rutland st address, all I found were these two:
    James Chapman 1870 London St John, Hampstead 3 Rutland terrace
    William Harvey 1870 London St John, Hampstead 8 Rutland terrace.

    Over & back to you all, sorry must prep dinner before going to Vet.
     
  13. Sis

    Sis Rootles out resources!

    Offline
    Messages:
    4,008
    Likes Received:
    15,107
    Location:
    Beckenham, Western Australia
    {-(^^)-}
     
    Ma-dotcom likes this.
  14. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

    Offline
    Messages:
    2,531
    Likes Received:
    5,973
    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    Hi Wendy, as Rutland St was the address given by the 'other' Elizabeth Harvey it probably has no bearing on Allison's search.

    Here's where we're at, and it isn't very far :(

    Thomas Chapman and his wife Elizabeth plus various children can be found on census 1871 onwards. Allison has birth certificates for three of the children, all giving Harvey as MMN. Before 1871 we haven't found either Thomas or Elizabeth and no marriage.

    I'm inclined to believe either they never married, or one of them changed their surname. Only one Thomas Chapman can be found in 1841 and 51 born Willesden, and he's not Allison's Thomas, so perhaps Thomas changed his name OR he wasn't born Willesden, but he is consistent throughout the census returns that Willesden is his birth place.

    I hope you're feeling better now and little doggie too. :)
     
    Ma-dotcom and GrannyBarb like this.
  15. Allison

    Allison New Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    8
    Location:
    Rhondda, South Wales
    Thank you for all your help. I hope that your dog is better too.
    Yes Thomas and Elizabeth are very consistent with their places of birth and birth years until Elizabeth dies in 1910 Pontypridd, Thomas then says that she was born in 1837. She was obviously older than him but somethings not right with these two, nothing makes sense. They could have changed their names but both of them? If Elizabeth did maybe her name was Ann as 3 of her daughters middle names was Ann.
     
    Ma-dotcom likes this.
  16. Ma-dotcom

    Ma-dotcom A Bonza Little Digger!

    Offline
    Messages:
    6,509
    Likes Received:
    16,679
    Location:
    South Australia
    Ann is such a lovely name :)
    Little 'Bailey ' has a nasty fungal ear infection & also a touch of arthritis. the fact that he is now about 12 yrs old threw me a bit, I keep forgetting to add years onto people & evidently dogs too. Hoping the meds clear him soon. Thanks you all for kind comments.

    I wonder of one of the players in this story was trying to stay removed from their family & so changed names about, along with their place of abode?
     
  17. Archie's Mum

    Archie's Mum Always digging up clues

    Offline
    Messages:
    8,132
    Likes Received:
    29,300
    Location:
    Orange, NSW Australia. The Colour City.
    ():-)
     
    Ma-dotcom likes this.
  18. Allison

    Allison New Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    8
    Location:
    Rhondda, South Wales
    Any ideas where I can look, I do not know where else to search or what to do with this couple. What I do know is that somethings not right and it's driving me crazy trying to find them.
     
  19. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

    Offline
    Messages:
    2,531
    Likes Received:
    5,973
    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    Hi Allison,

    For the time being I'm stumped myself. I think it a strong possibility Thomas was not registered as Chapman at birth, but I've not found a likely Thomas with a different surname. The major problem is not finding a marriage to fit, so perhaps they never did marry. I'm wondering if one of them was already married when they met which could be a reason for them not marrying. Happened with my grandfather's half brother and he too was living many miles away from his home town so able to stay under the radar, he didn't change his surname but did change his first name and added 5yrs to his age.
     
    Archie's Mum and Ma-dotcom like this.
  20. Allison

    Allison New Member

    Offline
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    8
    Location:
    Rhondda, South Wales
    Thank you all for your help. I now have someone else's opinion of the marriage in 1868 Stepney and can at last remove it from being a possibility.
     
    Daft Bat likes this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice