Brick wall {do not read on if you don't want a headache}

Discussion in 'Ask The Experts' started by Allison, Oct 15, 2016.

  1. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    I've only had a brief look, but I haven't spotted this beer house keeper at all. Do you have a reference or alternative spelling, please?

    Meanwhile, I did find this Thomas in Willesden in 1841 & 1851, plus his mother's death - since the names match, I'm assuming this was the one baptised 15 Dec 1839:
    But I don't think I tried looking for father John in 1861 or later.
     
  2. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    Here are the census references, Arthur

    1891, RG12; Piece: 1044; Folio: 1; Page: 3 (Licensed Victualler)

    1881, RG11; Piece: 1362; Folio: 13; Page: 9; (Beer House Keeper)

    1871, RG10; Piece: 796; Folio: 13; Page: 18; (bricklayer)

    And these may be him before marriage

    1861, RG 9; Piece: 103; Folio: 109; Page: 72;

    1851, HO107; Piece: 1700; Folio: 388; Page: 30;
     
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  3. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    The parish register entry says 'born nov 21st 1839' which could be this birth reg if registered first week in January.
    Births Mar 1840
    Chapman Thomas Hendon vol 3 page 167

    Of course we cannot be certain that the beer house keeper is the Thomas - baptised 1839 - son of John.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
  4. Allison

    Allison New Member

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    Yes that is exactly what I think. Did you see the sons name Lionel Harvey Chapman, that put the icing on the cake for me. I am so glad that you also think this.
    That ruled out where to look now. Even if they did not marry, you'd think that you would be able to find them in 1841-1861 Census individually.
    I did have a brief look for Chapman and Harvey's in Middlesex using their children's names incase they were named after themselves, their parents or siblings but couldn't get the grasp of it.
    This is why Northend was important to me as it is the only place where Thomas and Elizabeth were before 1871.
     
  5. Allison

    Allison New Member

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  6. Allison

    Allison New Member

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    I did find this Thomas Chapman in later electoral rolls with a sibling child of John Lingfield . I am getting all this from memory so please excuse if I get a bit muddled. I will have a look to see if I kept anything on computer
     
  7. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    Just to summarise, then, we appear to have 3x Thomas Chapman. Going from 1881 entries they are:
    1. Station Master in Wadhurst (age 41, born Southborough)
    2. Beer House Keeper in Willesden (age 41, born Willesden)
    3. Labourer in Llandaff (age 40, born Willesden)

    We think no.1 married Elizabeth Harvey in Stepney in 1868.
    No.2 might be the one born 21 Nov 1839 to John (b. Lingfield) & Margaret Eliza
    No.3 still hasn't been seen before the birth of Mary Anne in Watlington in 1867.

    Is that right, or have I missed something?
     
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  8. Allison

    Allison New Member

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    No electoral rolls but Thomas Chapman beer house keeper married Elizabeth Andrews 3 Quarter 1872 Hendon.
     
  9. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    Yes, I did, and that does strongly suggest his parents were Thomas Chapman and Elizabeth Harvey, and as his mother Elizabeth was born Stepney the Stepney 1868 marriage looks likely to be his parents.
     
  10. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    That's how I see it, Arthur
     
  11. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    I found that marriage too earlier today, in the registers at Ancestry, but I'm not sure it is the beer house keeper - and in some ways it looks more like yours, apart from the bride's surname.

    Thomas Chapman is a stonemason of Willesden, father Frederick (also a stonemason)
    Elizabeth Andrews is of St Leonard's Shoreditch, daughter of George (a carman)
    Both of full age, and signed their names.
    Witnesses: Frederick Chapman and Emma Andrews

    I had a quick look in the 1871 census and found a possible Elizabeth with widowed mother Emma, somewhere Shoreditch way, I think. I can't remember if I looked for Frederick, or if at that stage I thought it was a red herring (which it still might be....)
     
  12. Allison

    Allison New Member

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    Thank you to everyone who is helping me with this nightmare brickwall

    Got Mary Ann Chapman's birth cert to hand and in 1867 my Thomas Chapman was a Farm Labourer, according to Mary Ann's baptism they lived in Northend so Thomas worked on a farm and most probably lived at the same farm in Northend ?
    What do you think ? beginning of October what's to do on a farm in October I will check this out as I can only think of picking Apples at the mo.
     
  13. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    I'm not convinced that's right, Allison. The marriage is on Ancestry

    Thomas was a stonemason, son of Frederick also a stonemason.
     
  14. Allison

    Allison New Member

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    Elizabeth Andrews married in 1872 when Thomas was in Wales.
     
  15. Allison

    Allison New Member

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    Sorry I meant to say Thomas Chapman and Elizabeth Andrews married 3rd Quarter 1872. My Thomas and Elizabeth were in Wales having a Son Henry. I am rushing now as I have to take my daughter to out of hours for some anti biotic .

    This is what it has been like for me searching all this time, I think I have found him then there is always something.
     
  16. Allison

    Allison New Member

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    I did say about a possible headache, whether it be from too much searching records or banging your head against the wall. This couple give you one that's for sure.
     
  17. arthurk

    arthurk Well-Known Member

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    Thomas Chapman who married Elizabeth Andrews in 1872 - I wonder if he's part of the family in 1851 at HO107/1536 fo477 p46 - in Shoreditch:

    Father Frederick, a stonemason, with wife and 2 children including Thomas. Maybe that's where Thomas met Elizabeth, but he moved out to Willesden and they married there.

    (Could your Thomas have gone back to Willesden from Wales to marry???)

    Hope all's well with your daughter - someone will be here when you're ready to start again.
     
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  18. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    The stone mason Thomas who married Elizabeth Andrews? Oddly, there's two sons named Thomas, is one a stepson perhaps!

    1871
    RG10; Piece: 457; Folio: 46; Page: 2
    Fredk Chapman 50, stone mason
    Sarah Chapman 52
    Anne Chapman 26
    Thomas Chapman 22, stone mason
    William Chapman 17
    Thomas Chapman 12
    Mary A Chapman 9
    Richd Chapman 9
    Mary Coste 59
     
  19. Allison

    Allison New Member

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    Yes that is right Thank you
     
  20. Mealymoo

    Mealymoo A Busy Lizzy

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    Or, might he be Thomas Chapman being researched here, and the beer house keeper is the Thomas who is elusive pre 1871?
     

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