Brick wall {do not read on if you don't want a headache}

Mealymoo said:
I too agree arthuruk. I also have considered either one of them using a different name at marriage OR they never got around to marrying. That said, I haven't found on 1841, 51, 61 census a Thomas Chapman born circa 1840 Willesden (other than the beer house keeper who is accounted for)
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Allison said:
Thomas Chapman born 1839/1840 Hendon is married to an Elizabeth, I can't remember her surname but they are also still living in Willesden in later census reports, beer house keeper.
My Thomas is very consistant in census 1871-1911 with his birth year 1841 and place of birth Willesden. But there is no other Thomas born in Willesden in 1841. Also in the 1911 census Thomas states that he was married for so many years which worked out to be 1864 and on Elizabeth's death in 1910 says that she was born 1837.
I think it quite strange that I have been unable to find no sign of either Thomas and Elizabeth at all before 1871.
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I've only had a brief look, but I haven't spotted this beer house keeper at all. Do you have a reference or alternative spelling, please?

Meanwhile, I did find this Thomas in Willesden in 1841 & 1851, plus his mother's death - since the names match, I'm assuming this was the one baptised 15 Dec 1839:
arthurk said:
1841: HO107/690/16 fo34 p14-15
John (grocer) with Margaret (laundress), both "30", plus 5 children including Thomas, 2; also Elizabeth Chapman "70"? 78? - John's mother? Adults not born in county.

1851: HO107/1700 fo388 p30 (actually you've already got this)
John (grocer & general dealer), 44, born Lingfield, widower, plus 6 children including Thomas, 11. Children all born Willesden.

Death of Margaret Eliza Chapman: Dec qtr 1846, Hendon, 3/171
Buried St Mary, Willesden 27 Dec 1846, age 39
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But I don't think I tried looking for father John in 1861 or later.
 
arthurk said:
I've only had a brief look, but I haven't spotted this beer house keeper at all. Do you have a reference or alternative spelling, please?
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Here are the census references, Arthur

1891, RG12; Piece: 1044; Folio: 1; Page: 3 (Licensed Victualler)

1881, RG11; Piece: 1362; Folio: 13; Page: 9; (Beer House Keeper)

1871, RG10; Piece: 796; Folio: 13; Page: 18; (bricklayer)

And these may be him before marriage

1861, RG 9; Piece: 103; Folio: 109; Page: 72;

1851, HO107; Piece: 1700; Folio: 388; Page: 30;
 
arthurk said:
I'm assuming this was the one baptised 15 Dec 1839:
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The parish register entry says 'born nov 21st 1839' which could be this birth reg if registered first week in January.
Births Mar 1840
Chapman Thomas Hendon vol 3 page 167

Of course we cannot be certain that the beer house keeper is the Thomas - baptised 1839 - son of John.
 
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Yes that is exactly what I think. Did you see the sons name Lionel Harvey Chapman, that put the icing on the cake for me. I am so glad that you also think this.
That ruled out where to look now. Even if they did not marry, you'd think that you would be able to find them in 1841-1861 Census individually.
I did have a brief look for Chapman and Harvey's in Middlesex using their children's names incase they were named after themselves, their parents or siblings but couldn't get the grasp of it.
This is why Northend was important to me as it is the only place where Thomas and Elizabeth were before 1871.
 
Mealymoo said:
The parish register entry says 'born nov 21st 1839' which could be this birth reg if registered first week in January.
Births Mar 1840
Chapman Thomas Hendon vol 3 page 167

Of course we cannot be certain that the beer house keeper is the Thomas - baptised 1839 - son of John.
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I did find this Thomas Chapman in later electoral rolls with a sibling child of John Lingfield . I am getting all this from memory so please excuse if I get a bit muddled. I will have a look to see if I kept anything on computer
 
Just to summarise, then, we appear to have 3x Thomas Chapman. Going from 1881 entries they are:
1. Station Master in Wadhurst (age 41, born Southborough)
2. Beer House Keeper in Willesden (age 41, born Willesden)
3. Labourer in Llandaff (age 40, born Willesden)

We think no.1 married Elizabeth Harvey in Stepney in 1868.
No.2 might be the one born 21 Nov 1839 to John (b. Lingfield) & Margaret Eliza
No.3 still hasn't been seen before the birth of Mary Anne in Watlington in 1867.

Is that right, or have I missed something?
 
Allison said:
Did you see the sons name Lionel Harvey Chapman,
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Yes, I did, and that does strongly suggest his parents were Thomas Chapman and Elizabeth Harvey, and as his mother Elizabeth was born Stepney the Stepney 1868 marriage looks likely to be his parents.
 
arthurk said:
Just to summarise, then, we appear to have 3x Thomas Chapman. Going from 1881 entries they are:
1. Station Master in Wadhurst (age 41, born Southborough)
2. Beer House Keeper in Willesden (age 41, born Willesden)
3. Labourer in Llandaff (age 40, born Willesden)

We think no.1 married Elizabeth Harvey in Stepney in 1868.
No.2 might be the one born 21 Nov 1839 to John (b. Lingfield) & Margaret Eliza
No.3 still hasn't been seen before the birth of Mary Anne in Watlington in 1867.

Is that right, or have I missed something?
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That's how I see it, Arthur
 
Allison said:
No electoral rolls but Thomas Chapman beer house keeper married Elizabeth Andrews 3 Quarter 1872 Hendon.
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I found that marriage too earlier today, in the registers at Ancestry, but I'm not sure it is the beer house keeper - and in some ways it looks more like yours, apart from the bride's surname.

Thomas Chapman is a stonemason of Willesden, father Frederick (also a stonemason)
Elizabeth Andrews is of St Leonard's Shoreditch, daughter of George (a carman)
Both of full age, and signed their names.
Witnesses: Frederick Chapman and Emma Andrews

I had a quick look in the 1871 census and found a possible Elizabeth with widowed mother Emma, somewhere Shoreditch way, I think. I can't remember if I looked for Frederick, or if at that stage I thought it was a red herring (which it still might be....)
 
Thank you to everyone who is helping me with this nightmare brickwall

Got Mary Ann Chapman's birth cert to hand and in 1867 my Thomas Chapman was a Farm Labourer, according to Mary Ann's baptism they lived in Northend so Thomas worked on a farm and most probably lived at the same farm in Northend ?
What do you think ? beginning of October what's to do on a farm in October I will check this out as I can only think of picking Apples at the mo.
 
Allison said:
No electoral rolls but Thomas Chapman beer house keeper married Elizabeth Andrews 3 Quarter 1872 Hendon.
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I'm not convinced that's right, Allison. The marriage is on Ancestry

Thomas was a stonemason, son of Frederick also a stonemason.
 
arthurk said:
I found that marriage too earlier today, in the registers at Ancestry, but I'm not sure it is the beer house keeper - and in some ways it looks more like yours, apart from the bride's surname.

Thomas Chapman is a stonemason of Willesden, father Frederick (also a stonemason)
Elizabeth Andrews is of St Leonard's Shoreditch, daughter of George (a carman)
Both of full age, and signed their names.
Witnesses: Frederick Chapman and Emma Andrews

I had a quick look in the 1871 census and found a possible Elizabeth with widowed mother Emma, somewhere Shoreditch way, I think. I can't remember if I looked for Frederick, or if at that stage I thought it was a red herring (which it still might be....)
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Elizabeth Andrews married in 1872 when Thomas was in Wales.
 
Sorry I meant to say Thomas Chapman and Elizabeth Andrews married 3rd Quarter 1872. My Thomas and Elizabeth were in Wales having a Son Henry. I am rushing now as I have to take my daughter to out of hours for some anti biotic .

This is what it has been like for me searching all this time, I think I have found him then there is always something.
 
I did say about a possible headache, whether it be from too much searching records or banging your head against the wall. This couple give you one that's for sure.
 
Thomas Chapman who married Elizabeth Andrews in 1872 - I wonder if he's part of the family in 1851 at HO107/1536 fo477 p46 - in Shoreditch:

Father Frederick, a stonemason, with wife and 2 children including Thomas. Maybe that's where Thomas met Elizabeth, but he moved out to Willesden and they married there.

(Could your Thomas have gone back to Willesden from Wales to marry???)

Hope all's well with your daughter - someone will be here when you're ready to start again.
 
The stone mason Thomas who married Elizabeth Andrews? Oddly, there's two sons named Thomas, is one a stepson perhaps!

1871
RG10; Piece: 457; Folio: 46; Page: 2
Fredk Chapman 50, stone mason
Sarah Chapman 52
Anne Chapman 26
Thomas Chapman 22, stone mason
William Chapman 17
Thomas Chapman 12
Mary A Chapman 9
Richd Chapman 9
Mary Coste 59
 
arthurk said:
Just to summarise, then, we appear to have 3x Thomas Chapman. Going from 1881 entries they are:
1. Station Master in Wadhurst (age 41, born Southborough)
2. Beer House Keeper in Willesden (age 41, born Willesden)
3. Labourer in Llandaff (age 40, born Willesden)

We think no.1 married Elizabeth Harvey in Stepney in 1868.
No.2 might be the one born 21 Nov 1839 to John (b. Lingfield) & Margaret Eliza
No.3 still hasn't been seen before the birth of Mary Anne in Watlington in 1867.

Is that right, or have I missed something?
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Yes that is right Thank you
 
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