Discussion in 'Ask The Experts' started by eric kingsley, Nov 20, 2019.
Hi Victoria! Do you happen to know what religion they were when in early
days in New Zealand?
I tried looking for 'Grace' as a 2nd name, didn't help your cause though.
I wonder if 'Crighton' was spelled a different way, & changed due to accents of the time. ? [creighton, Crayton.]
Hi Burt, the marriage of William Henry Scott and Agnes Pearson Kinnaird can be found on presbyterian.org.nz Waikouaiti parish Register 20/12/1869
Hi Victoria. I have had a good look for immigration of a William Henry Scott to New Zealand. One stands out. William Henry Scott arrived in Auckland on board the Ann in 1848, with him was 1 woman and 4 children. He was ‘of the 10th Foot from Belfast’. I’m sorry but that’s all I could glean. I can’t even find the Ann arriving on any lists, so far, but it may give you something to chase.
From Auckland Area Passenger Arrivals 1838-1889 1909-1921 aucklandcity.govt.nz
Royal New Zealand Fencibles 1847-1852
RNZ Fencibles corps were retired soldiers from Britian and Ireland often referred to as Pensioners who enlisted as military reserve to act as a defence force for the protection of the early settlers in the fledgling town of Auckland.
In return for availability in case of attack and attendance at parades the Fencibles were provided with a cottage and an acre of land which after 7 years of service they would own.
One of the Fencible ships was the Ann arriving at Auckland on 16/5/1848
This, I would look seriously as being the father of your William Henry Scott, he being one of the 4 children on the Ann.
Maybe William Henry Scott and Grace married in Belfast.
FMP have a military entry for a Wm Henry Scott born 1806 Belfast served with 10th Regiment of Infantry ( a private) from 1823 - 1845
There is a bit more but FMP's t's and c's prevent me from posting them
Not sure but there is a burial of a 93 year old Grace Scott 1906 in the Northern Cemetery, Dunedin. Others are buried in the grave, one born Scotland but no info on Grace at all.
Well done Sue and Molly May! I think you are on the right trail!
As Dunedin was founded 1848 you would think the family would
be aware their forebears were among the first settlers there!
It would seem the Regiment was in the UK from circa 1834/5 and
Belfast would seem the obvious place for the marriage.
I had a sister of my ggg grandfather that married a man from Dublin
and it does look as if she went there with him for the marriage.
Alternatively was John Crichton, married 1799, also in the forces for a while?
Do you know the names of WHS Jnr's siblings Victoria? The family were probably in Britain/Ireland in 1841 at the time of the census. WHS Jnr would have been about 5. Some combination of the children's/mother's/father's names might show up. I expect you've tried this.
Thank you all for your comments. The arrival on the Ann in 1848 with the William Henry Scott and family is not connected to my family. My reasoning for this is that on William Henry Scott Jnr death certificate dated July 5 1904 it is stated that he was born in Barrhead Scotland and spent 13 years living in Victoria (so left New Zealand for Australia in or about 1891) and lived in New Zealand for 20 years (which would give his arrival there around 1870).
As he married Agnes Kinnaird in December 1869, I would think he had not been in NZ for very long before they married. Unfortunately William Henry Scott is a very common name which makes research difficult.
Regards the spelling of the name Crichton, I have come across many variations.
I thought we may have been getting somewhere, but as Agnes died in 1893 do you know who the informant was on Williams death certificate. He may have only been in New Zealand for 2O years but he may have been there for ‘at least 20’ or ‘over 20 years’.
Also as Eric asked, do you know the names of his siblings? They may be easier to trace, timewise
It’s still possible for Wiliam to be born in Scotland and moved around with his father to Belfast and other places with the army. The 10th was even in Canada for a time.
Hello Archie's Mum, Agnes Scott who died in 1893 was 16 years old and the daughter of WHS Jnr and Agnes Scott. Her father W.H. Scott was the informant listed on her certificate stating she was born in Otago, New Zealand and lived in Victoria for 3 years.
Agnes Scott, wife of WHS Jnr did not die until 1912, so it is most likely that she provided the information on his death certificate. Sadly WHS Jnr was found dead on the side of a road and his death was accelarated by exposure to the weather and an inquest was held . So the person listed as the informant on his death certificate was a John Hall who was present at the inquest at the police station, so I would think the details of his time in NZ would be correct.
Unfortunately the only information I have in relation to my gg grandparents William Henry Scott, Officer in the Army and wife Grace Scott formerly Crighton are taken from their son WHS Jnr's death certificate. So Eric I do not know of any siblings, only wish I did.
Just checking some details Victoria.
Grizel found a record that Alexander Crichton married Miriam Tompkins Wyatt but you wrote that Alexander Crichton married Miriam Waters .Was this just a typo? Does the marriage certificate for Alexander Crichton that you hold name his father as Edward Barnes Crichton?
Archie's Mum wrote "Victoria’s Alexander Crichton was 26 when he married Miriam in 1889 giving him a birth year of c1863. Miriam was 17." But we know that Alexander Crichton, son of EBC, was born on 2nd August 1857 making him 32 in 1889. Alexander would have known his own age. If I've understood the post from Archie's Mum correctly then this is a different Alexander Crichton, surely?
I think this was indeed a typo Eric. I seem to remember that the maiden name of Miriam's mother was Waters.
Victoria did say in one post that she had the marriage details and I think that included EBC as father of groom.
WHS jnr may have fibbed about his age on marriage as his bride was only 17. His age on burial in 1920 was 63 giving yob as 1857 which matches Alexander s/o EBC.
Thanks Grizel. Typo it is then.
Victoria wrote "I have the records from the Dunedin, New Zealand Presbyterian Church Marriage Registers relating to the marriage of Alexander and Miriam." She didn't specifically say that EBC was named on the certificate as Alexander's father. I'm just checking.
Sorry to be a bit dim but I don't understand what you are trying to tell me here
I'm just checking on Alexander's age as stated on his marriage certificate. If it was out by a more than, I dunno, a year say, from 32 then it may not have been AC s/o EBC.
Yes the discrepancy in age is def worth checking. The Alexander who married Miriam gave a yob as 1863 on marriage but on his death had a yob of 1857. I am suggesting that he may have pretended to be younger than he actually was, poss because Miriam was much younger than him. These are the same 2 Alexanders as he is buried with son Edward Alexander.
On NZ bdm Edward Alexander's birth has mother's given name as Miriam Tomkins.
Hope my thinking makes sense!
My apologies I definitely made a typing error...should read Miriam Tompkins Wyatt. Her mother was Elizabeth Miriam Waters Tompkins.
Alexander is definitely the son of Edward Barnes Crichton and this is documented on his marriage certificate.
One can only guess why Alexander lied about his age, quite possibly as suggested by Grizel that he wanted to appear younger to Miriam. In those times it was not necessary to show documentation to prove age as it is today.
FMP says you were right the first time Grizel. It says Alexander Crichton married Miriam Tompkins Wyatt in NZ 1889, Registration Number 1889/2540. So who is Miriam Waters I wonder?
Ahhh.. just saw your latest post Victoria.
For info - I got access to "The Victorian Clown", the book that Grizel found. It makes 3 references to Edward Edwards as she said. The book is built around the memoirs of James Frowde (1831-99) and the gagbook of Thomas Lawrence, who worked in the 1860s/70s. The references to Edwards are all in the Frowde memoirs.
Frowde refers to the clown only as "Edwards" and never uses a first name. The first reference is from April 1851, Halifax. We have ECB still in the UK at this time. Frowde simply says that the clown "Edwards" made "a name at the Olympic" (Astley's Olympic Theatre, London) and that he had "some very clever performing dogs". A footnote from the authors names the clown as "Edward Edwards" and gives a further reference to "JT VA2". This is John Turner's "Victorian Arena: The Performers. A Dictionary of British Circus Biography - Part 2. My conclusion is that the authors looked up likely clowns called "Edwards" in JT VA2 and decided that "Edward Edwards" was a the performer in question. Why not Edwin Edwards? I have no idea.
The second reference to "Edwards" is from 1855, Cheltenham. Frowde says "Edwards and the tumbling clowns, became stereotyped." Assuming there is no earlier usage of "stereotyped" I think he means "they got boring". A footnote mentions the "Cheltenham Looker-On" (CL-O, a local paper). From the BNA the CL-O does indeed mention Hengler's Circus in Dec 1855 and Jan 1856 working locally. This could fit with our narrative for ECB because as MollyMay noted ECB had returned to the UK, probably because his brother George was dying, and to get baptised, at the end of 1855.
The third reference is again to Xmas 1855 and a pantomime which "...the popular Olympic clown had superintended...". A footnote expands on this. It refers again to reports in the CL-O which names the panto as "Bold Robin Hood". The authors say "The popular Olympic clown is Mons. Edouard, of the advertisements, Edward Edwards, who joined them at Halifax in 1851 and rejoined in Cheltenham, December 1856...".
The December 1856 date makes another hole in the period of time we thought EBC spent on the Continent.
I searched the BNA for signs of Mons Edouard or Edward Edwards in 1855 and 1856. I think the December 1856 date is a typo as there are no reports of the circus in Cheltenham at that time. Following are the search results (NB. ...playing the violin whilst performing somersaults on the tight rope...!!!)
Saturday 08 December 1855
"...Hengler's Cirque Cheltenham. THE GRAND GALA OF THE SEASON! MONDAY, DECMBER the 10TH, First Night of the great Shakesperian Spectacle, THE BATTLE OF BOSWORTH FIELD. KING RICHARD III., MR JOHN MILTON HENGLER. FIRST APPEARANCE OF MONS. EDOUARD, MR. HENGLER'S OVERTURE on the VIOLIN whilst performing Somersaults on the Tight Rope. BEING FOR THE BENEFIT OF JOHN MILTON HENGLER. No discharge of Firearms on the above evening. Stalls, 3s ; etc etc ..."
Saturday 29 December 1855
"...Hengler's Cirque Cheltenham. The Last Three Nights!!! Monday evening for the benefit of Herr Hengler, the King of Rope Dancers. On this occasion, JOHN M. HENGLER will appear, in conjunction with his Brother, on the Tight Rope, concluding with BOLD ROBIN HOOD AND THE FAIRY PRINCESS OF SHERWOOD FOREST, FOR THIS NIGHT ONLY, THE LADIES OF THE STAG HUNT WILL APPEAR. A HOST OF TALENT!! Stalls, 3s ; etc etc..."
Saturday 05 January 1856
"...Hengler's Circus has been crowded every evening during the past week by parties anxious to see the Pantomime of Bold Robin Hood, which, as a whole has been very creditably performed. The Harlequin, Columbine, and Clown were personified by Mr. Samwell, Mrs Beacham and Mons. Edouard, all of whom played the parts allotted to them exceedingly well, especially the latter...etc etc..."
These references raised more questions about EBC's stage names. It would be worth looking through John Turner's "Victorian Arena" dictionary, but that would require visiting the University of Sheffield, National Fairground and Circus Archive which holds John Turner's works. The dictionary seems to be long out of print. If Edward Edwards was EBC then the authors certainly think that Edward was also Mons. Edouard. Yet another stage name.
There is one for sale on ABE Books - £479!!!!
Separate names with a comma.