Handwriting translation needed, please

Discussion in 'Ask The Experts' started by mugwortismy cat, Mar 28, 2014.

  1. Findem

    Findem The Fearless One

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    Certainly looks like Casasnajor, probably I'll be proven wrong again.

    Just Googled Casasnajor and found a reference to an Alexander Casasmajor Michael (with a Spanish surname), he's a policeman in USA.

    I think you're spot on with Scrivener Mugsworthyismycat.

    So perhaps Emma Scrivener had a Spanish mother?
     
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  2. Sue036

    Sue036 Well-Known Member

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    Figures, the Spanish convention is to use both surnames, but with the mother's name last. Hence, in Spain, she would be Emma Scrivener y Casa????
     
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  3. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    I have struck lucky! I was getting nowhere so decided just to search for Casa*ajor as a first name

    Have found Probate for Emma Casamajor SCHEIBER (Relict of Charles August PACEBERGER) died 7 Dec 1890 --- says she is a widow and lived in the right place, Probate to a "Richard Pargeter ... Wharfinger the Father and Guardian of Frederick James Stevens Mary Joseph Pargeter Minor the Universal Legatee" -- can someone explain that to me?

    -- can't explain the widow part as yet or why her name is different from Paceberger, 1881 says she is unmarried (but that census is a bit strange and I don't trust it -- in one place it originally said a RC priest was married, the enumerator did correct it but he may have missed other errors). Not found a marriage as yet.

    I also have found baptism of Emma Casamajor SCHREIBER on 1st Aug 1807 (born 4 ult.) in Lyme Regis, parents Thomas Schreiber Esqr. & Mary

    So seems the Scrivener on the 1881 is an Anglicised version of her name (?)
     
  4. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    It certainly looks as if her surname should be Scrivener in 1881.
    However, there is an Emma Casamajor living as a lodger, widow, aged 52 born Lyme Regis, Dorchester at 48 Clapham Road, Lambeth in 1861 (RG9/357/92/13). There is a registration for the death of Emma Casamajor December qtr. 1890 Hackney, aged 83.

    So, was she unmarried or a widow - was Scrivener her maiden name?

    Ann
     
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  5. AnnB

    AnnB Editor in Chief who is Hot off the Press!

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    We cross-posted :)

    Will have to come back later.......

    Ann
     
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  6. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    I have established that Emma had two siblings born in Lyme Regis:)

    Sophia Elizabeth bapt. 1805
    Thomas Campbell bapt. 1810

    I can place Thomas Schreiber in Lyme Regis only in 1806, 1810 and 1811 (Dorset Land Tax):(

    The only marriage of a Thomas Schreiber to a Mary that I have found so far, is to Mary Macky in 1797 in Hertfordshireo_O [they have a child Elizabeth Mary in 1801 in Edinburgh]

    There is an earlier Sophia Elizabeth Schreiber (a possible relation or a complete red herring) who marries in London in 1782 to Anthony Geledneki/Geudneki:rolleyes:

    Using the alternative name of Scrivener hasn't got me anywhere as yet:(:(

    And Emma's husband doesn't exist, no-one in the whole history of the world has ever been called Paceberger:eek:
     
  7. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Some progress ... :)

    WHEREAS by an Order of the High Court of
    Chancery made in the matter of an Act of Parlia-
    ment of the 10th and 11th Victoria, c. 96 and in the
    matter of the trusts of the marriage settlement of Thomas
    Schreiber with Mary Macky, it was referred to Nassau
    William Senior, Esq. one of the Masters of the said Court,
    to enquire whether any and what appointments or appoint-
    ment of or affecting the trust funds, subject to the trust of
    the said marriage settlement or any parts or part thereof,
    have or has been made by the said Thomas Schreiber and
    Mary Macky, or either, and which of them, pursuant to the
    powers of appointment contained in the indenture of
    settlement, dated the 13th day of July 1797, or either of
    them; and whether any and what assignments have been
    made by the children of the said Thomas Schreiber,
    begotten on the body of Mary his wife, or any of them of
    their respective shares and interests of and in the said
    trust funds or any part thereof, and who is or are
    now entitles thereto. All persons claiming under such
    appointments or assignments are, by their Solicitors,
    to come in before the said Master, at his chambers,
    in Southampton-buildings, Chancery-lane, London, on
    or before the 15th day of June 1850, and leave their claims,
    and are, on or before the 1st day of July 1850, to
    establish their claims, or in default thereof they will be
    excluded the benefit of the said Order. The said Thomas
    Schreiber and Mary Macky were married in 1797, from
    which period, until 1816, they resided at Belmont-house,
    Lyme Regis, Dorset; they then removed to Caen, in
    Normandy, where they resided until the death of the said
    Thomas Schreiber, in 1818; Mrs. Schreiber the removed
    to Paris, and in 1819 married Mr. Jean Auguste Talansier,
    of Paris; she remained there untl 1832, since which period
    she resided separately from her said husband (who died in
    1835), in and in the neighbourhood of London, until her
    death, which took place at Loughborough-cottages, Brixton,
    Surrey, on the 4th September 1849.

    from London Gazette, p 1371
    www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/21094/pages/1371/page.pdf‎
     
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  8. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    There is a PCC will (dated 1816 and proved 1819) for a Thomas Schreiber 'heretofore of Tewin in the County of Hertford but now of Saint Helier in the Island of Jersey'. I've only had a quick look but he does mention at least two sons, Thomas Campbell and Charles Edward, and 'my six daughters' including Sophia Elizabeth and Emma Casamajor.

    NB Ancestry have transcribed Tewin Hertford as Ensin Hatford.:rolleyes:

    P.S. sorry I've only just spotted your previous post, mugwortismycat. That looks interesting!
     
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  9. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    A2A has descriptions of some deeds for property in Enfield, which mention some of the people in this story including (in an 1823 mortgage) 'Jean Auguste Talansier of Champs Elysees, Paris, officer in King's Dragoon Guards', his wife Mary, and Charles Edward Schreiber of New Bond Street, midshipman.

    http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/records.aspx?cat=074-acc371&cid=-1#-1
     
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  10. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Announced in the Gentleman's magazine

    15 [July 1797] ...

    At Tewin church, Thomas Schrieber, esq. son of Charles S. esq. of Tewin house, Herts, to Miss Macky, daughter of Robert M. esp. of Marden-hill.

    via google-books
     
  11. Daft Bat

    Daft Bat Administrator. Chief cook & bottle washer! Staff Member

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    Just as a passing comment:

    Tewin House
    The capital messuage called TEWIN HOUSE was bought from the lord of the manor of Tewin by Thomas Montford, who died possessed of it in 1632, leaving a son John. The latter died in 1651, leaving a widow Joan and three daughters, Anne Layfield, Elizabeth Francklyn and Mary Rainsford. Tewin House is said to have come to Mary Rainsford, who sold it to Sir George Butler. At the death of the latter without issue in 1657 the property passed to his nephew Francis Butler, who died in 1690, leaving two daughters, to the elder of whom, Isabella wife of Charles Hutchinson, Tewin House came. Isabella and Charles are said to have sold it to William Gore, at whose death in 1709 it passed to his grandson Henry. Henry Gore conveyed it in 1715 to Gen. the Hon. Joseph Sabine, who died in 1739 and was succeeded by his eldest son John. John's son Joseph Sabine is said to have sold Tewin House to Robert Macky, who sold it to Charles Schreiber. He died possessed of it in 1800, and his son William sold it in 1804 to Peter fifth Earl Cowper. The earl pulled down the house, and the property became absorbed in the main manor.

    (Source: British History Online)
     
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  12. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Thanks Jan:)
     
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  13. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Thanks Huncamunca :)
    Just looked at this, I don't seem to have eyes that can read this script very well right now, but have downloaded it and will try and transcribe it later -- sure I just need practice!

    By the way, Canterbury must be somewhere other than England. I searched Wills and Probate, and got 4 hits in the National Probate Calendar, but nothing else. I clicked off UK & Ireland, and changed to all databases and up popped the PCC will too ;)

    P.s. have found another sibling for Emma in St Helier, Georgiana bapt. 19 Mar 1815
     
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  14. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    Emma must have left her entire property to Frederick J.S.M.J. Pargeter. He is presumably the Frederick James M.J.S. Pargeter whose birth was registered in the St Saviour, Southwark, district in the third quarter of 1871. He just missed the 1871 census, but appears as 9 year old Fred Pargeter in 1881 with mother Alice and numerous siblings (the father, Richard, is not there) (RG 11/601, f.109, p.19).

    Aha, good thing I did look for the Pargeter family in 1871 too, as they have an interesting visitor: Emma Casamajor, 59 year old widow, born Dorset (RG 10/605, f.22, p.38).
     
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  15. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Thank you Huncamunca :)

    I thought after I posted that it must mean that, I was confused though as I initially thought there were at least two people in that name -- then realised it must be one person but got distracted from searching for him because I was trying to find Emma's father
     
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  16. Huncamunca

    Huncamunca The Knowledgeable One

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    Yes, that's all it is, no dark arts, just practice! The more PCC wills you see, the more you get used to that horrible writing. Also the same old phrases crop up again and again, and if you can spot these it can be a good way in to cracking the code.

    It may help to make a little chart showing how the clerk writes each letter of the alphabet, upper case and lower case, from words that you are able to read, to help you decipher the problematic words. Here is in an example of such an alphabet from a somewhat earlier PCC will used in The National Archives' palaeography tutorial:

    http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/palaeography/doc2_popup/alphabet.htm

    Good luck! If you get stuck, do shout.

    mmm, that's Ancestry logic for you! Baffling.
     
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  17. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Beore I try my hand at that will, I thought I'd better finish my transcript of the 1881, the second page of the Institution is in Enumeration District 27b (rather than 27a) I assume it is just bad luck when the enumerator ran out of space in his book as I can't imagine it would make sense to design it that way! -- though maybe it's not the same enumerator, the writing is worse, and the pen is definitely differento_O

    This census is horrible for my purposes, the enumerator has messed up the flats (4 to a house) into one household, he has not numbered the flats and or houses as they were actually numbered, nor has he followed an obvious route in a similar way to other census/electoral rolls --- where people are present in 1881 and 1891 I may be able to sort something out ... else I'm not really sure what I can do

    Anyway here are my latest pleas for help :oops:

    LNDRG11_301_304-names.jpg

    I have:
    Emma THORP Lady age: 68 Stoke Newington, Middx
    Emily McSHANE Head 69 Middx
    Helen CONTENAU? Boarder 65 Middx
    Shur[?] F de SABE " 25 france
    Sarah MOLESWORTH 67 Brompton, Kent

    It's the ones in bold I need help with, please;)

    [edit: sorrry thought I had better add in the ages and places :rolleyes:]
     
  18. Chimp

    Chimp Moderator & Cheeky Human IMP Staff Member

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    familysearch has the names as

    Head Emily Mcthane F 69 , Middlesex, England
    Boarder Helen Contencin F 65 , Middlesex, England
    Boarder Shur F Delabe F 25 France
    Boarder Sarah Molesworth F 67 Brompton, Kent, England

    Helen Contencin would have been born about 1816

    There is a baptism for a Frances Helen Contencin

    Name: Frances Helen Contencin, Female
    Christening Date 01 Jan 1816, St Dunstan, Stepney, Middlesex, England
    Father: Peter Contencin Mother: Susan
    Indexing Project (Batch) Number I04825-2, GS Film number 597604

    There is also a death for her

    Name: Helen Contencin
    Death Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun 1881
    Event Place: Hackney, London, England
    Age (available after 1866): 65
    Birth Year (Estimated): 1816
    Volume: 1B, Page: 330
     
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  19. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    Sorry, one more and I think I'm done until I have to start on the 1871 census (and that Will)

    LNDRG11_301_304-0911Eliza.jpg

    I have transcribed the middle name as Eliza SAVORY, ancestry transcription is Sewey, what does anyone think???

    :)
     
  20. mugwortismy cat

    mugwortismy cat Tenacious to the End!

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    That I am very happy with 8(:-)

    That I am not :(

    Thanks Chimp:)
     
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